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Ep. 141- Breastfeeding a Toddler- Maureen & Lyra Update!

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*We apologize for any typos, misspellings or incorrect grammar. Our transcript is auto-generated by software that’s trying its best, just like all of us.*


Hi everybody. Hello. Heather and I are having kind of a, a day already, and we’re just beginning. So welcome. Welcome to our absolute disaster. Welcome to the Milk Minute. If this is your first episode that you’ve ever tuned into, maybe listen to a different one.

First circle back, get to know us a little better, and then maybe you’ll feel a little bit more empathetic towards our situation. Today we are, we are riding low today on the heels of basically three weeks of illness in either of our households. Maureen’s household, arguably worse because there was a lot of poop and vomit involved.

My house was just general fatigue, respiratory illness, night terrors, husband gone. Mm-hmm. hunting for long stretches of time. Thankfully, I do not suffer from that affliction. Oh, it’s an affliction. It is. It is. It is. And we’re thinking about getting an exorcism, a hunting exorcism. I support that. Yeah.

Well, I haven’t pooped my pants today, so I’m, I’m considering this a good day. Don’t know if either of my children have pooped their pants today though. So . Well, I’ve been going through the motions of just getting all the things done, like feeding the children only for them to not eat any of the food I made, obviously, like as I’m scraping food down the disposal that they did not eat.

Mm-hmm. Again because they’ve chosen to just photosynthesize apparently to grow instead of, and they do though consume food. They feel absolutely fine. They do. They intermittent fast for like ridiculous week at a time. Yeah. And it’s so annoying. I’m scraping it down the sink and I’m just like, they are starving children all over the world, you know, and I’m like that person and so I’m going through all the motions and then, I show up to record today and I basically open my mouth to start talking to Maureen and just burst into tears.

And so now I sound like this pre, you know, going on air, full, swollen face cuz it’s just like, sometimes you just have to be around another 30 something or 20 something. Whoever’s like living the same life as you right now, who’s got kids to just like really crack that nut of what the whatever you’ve been trying to hold together.

Yeah. So phone a friend. Yeah, absolutely. It, it . It’s really nice to be able to laugh and cry simultaneously. . Yeah. With somebody who shares your struggles. . Yeah. It’s just, I don’t know man. I like am I don’t know when it stops. Does it just stop when your kids get old enough that you don’t have to like clean up their vomit anymore?

When is that? What is that age? Can somebody tell me that? How about what is the age where your kid stops speaking to you explicitly in fur Latin from Phineas and Ferb. Oh God. Where instead of pig Latin, they add herb on the end of everything. So like Oren Meb. Oh, that’s your name. Oren Meb. I’m ever Herb. It’s horrific.

God. And it makes your brain work way too hard. Yeah. And it’s just very, very upsetting on the heels of all of the Pokémon information and the Minecraft information. We are moving out of the chronic whistling phase, which is great. Oh, thank God. So he’ll still whistle, but then he’ll stop himself and go, I noticed, I noticed.

And I’m like, and he’s like, aren’t you proud that I noticed? And I’m like, ah. Now notice one second earlier, . So right now, the thing that my oldest is doing that is driving all of us insane, is he. . So like he, he has like a dust mite allergy, right? So he like often has a little bit of postnasal drip and the way he’s been clearing his throat, is the most obnoxious.

Like, I can’t even replicate it. It is so obnoxious. It’s like he opens his mouth fully and like opens his throat and just like it, and it’s loud and it like somehow reverberates all over the house. And my husband and I are about to like tear our ears out of our heads . But like also, there’s nothing we can actually do.

Like we’ve tried to be like, Hey, I think there’s probably a more effective way to clear your throat. And he just like has no concept of what we’re talking about. He’s like, that’s what I’m doing. I’m like, oh, okay. Yeah. Places my daughter has directly coughed on purpose. My toothbrush. Mm. Like literally aims herself towards my toothbrush and coughs from the bottom of her lung directly into my mouth is another area.

Just need some like epithelial cells to get in there. The moment I sit down with a bowl of yogurt, she comes over to cough directly into it. I’m, it like, makes you wanna take their face and just push them away from you. is that, is like, is that then, is that part of what we call like being a toddler? Just like directly assaulting us with body fluids?

Yeah, I think so. That’s actually what we’re gonna talk about today. Everybody , I know that we, yeah, we were gonna talk about toddlers and, and my update about nursing, a toddler. But you still have a toddler. As well. Yeah. I, I think she’s not four yet, so. Mm-hmm. , that was my question. Like, is she a toddler?

I kind of thought of Griffin as a toddler until he was five, which maybe wasn’t accurate. I don’t know. I mean, she certainly doesn’t toddle anywhere. She climbs like a spider monkey up every single countertop, even if there’s like knives or raw chicken on there. And , especially if they’re, especially, and raw chicken , it’s like they’re always trying to unlive themselves, you know, like, what are they doing?

I, I just. Like it helps when I think of them as little scientists who are like trying to ask questions, improve theories, but I can only do that on good days, on bad days. I think of them as sociopaths. Yeah, well they are both. Yeah. And the worst I think might be when my daughter tries to discipline me the way she hears me, discipline her.

Oh my God. And then when I try to say something nice and constructive, like, Heidi, you know, it’s really not nice to tell Mommy that you’re gonna put me in timeout when I give you the gummies that you asked me for. And then she says, it’s not nice to do that when you give me the gummies you ask me for.

And I’m like, are you copy what happening? The copycat, my son. Has been on like a copycat thing and he has a real talent for mimicking my inflection. Oh God. And I , I was talking to my psychologist about it and she was like, it usually works to just ignore him. And I was like, I think if I ignore him, I’m gonna hit him

And I don’t like, I don’t wanna hit my child, but I think if I don’t immediately address it, I will not be in control of Yeah. Myself. Right, right. And I have excused myself multiple times to go to the bathroom and I lock the door. Mm-hmm. And they will both stand on the outside of the door and just bang on it repeatedly screaming, mommy.

Yeah. Cause that’s, that’s not the private space. Maybe go do laundry. Do they wanna help? They love doing laundry with me, but, well, Heidi does, Theo is too afraid to go into the basement still for some reason. Why? Your basement’s like really nice. I, I don’t know. He’s full of fear at night. You have like a house basement.

I, I know. Not like a, it’s very confusing. Interesting.

I’m sorry guys. We are, are beaten down. We’re having the day; we’ve lost our sparkle as moms. Are you guys feeling that email? At email at us? I feel like I’m not gonna like Sparkle again till I’m like much older and my children are gone and I’m like, I am like a wise old woman. But there’s so much time between now and then.

Yeah. I think that Jennifer Garner might have messed up our expectations in that 13 going on 30 movie, 30 flirty and fabulous. It’s like, no, that’s not happening for us. Well, especially not those of us who had kids in our twenties. Like I, so now a lot of my friends are, start like age mates are starting to have children like who are like maybe three to 35 or whatever, and I just.

First of all, I, I am full . I am full of like very quiet feelings that I just don’t think are constructive to tell them that. Like, I think their lives might be about to be flushed down a toilet , like really slowly in like a good, in a joyful way, you know, in the way that children do. Yeah. And, and also I’m just,

Oh. Oh. That’s, that’s why we, that’s why I’ve been so much more tired for so much longer. Yeah. But also, like, to be fair to those people that are just starting out, or you’re pregnant, you’re always gonna have to grieve the loss of something with any big change as an adult. Yeah. So you get a big new job, you’re gonna have to grieve the loss of maybe your old office your old dynamics with coworkers, things like that.

You have a baby. It’s very joyous. But we’re also grieving the loss of like, napping ourselves, fixing our hair, pooping alone, completely pooping alone, you know, and like now Maureen and I, all the extra money we ever had. Right. And grieving the loss of that. Right. Maureen and I are now far enough into this that like the initial grieving process is over and now it’s a combination of like, Boredom.

Despair. Despair, . Oh God. Like it, it’s like, ooh. It’s like the frog in the pot of boiling water that doesn’t know it’s boiling yet, cuz it’s such a slow boil. And then all of a sudden you’re just like, I, we just figured it out. Yeah. You’re like, oh my God, I need Prozac. Like, when did this happen? ? Yeah.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so I guess the message here is, build in some new things for you. I don’t know when you’re going through these changes, if you can, I don’t know that we have a real message. I think. I think my thought today is just like we’re here with you. If you feel like your life is in the bottom of a dumpster, fire and we’ll get through it together.

I don’t know how, I don’t know that it gets better, but at least we’re all at the bottom together. , if you are living a hellscape where your child is pooping their pants while sitting on the toilet, cuz they couldn’t get their pants off. Oh God. That’s, you’re not alone. My son did that the other night. Yeah, I’m sorry.

This diarrhea has been bad guys. And he was on the toilet and he was like, I am still pooping . Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. And my toddler broke her wrist. Yeah. Because that’s something that children do apparently. And when, and let me tell you, I, so, okay. . My mother-in-law was babysitting and I came home and she was like, Lyra’s been a little bit fussy.

Like she fell down and she cried, but like she doesn’t, I don’t really think she’s hurt. I don’t really know what’s going on. And I watched her for a couple hours cuz I was like, are you hurt? Like, cuz she was using her arms fine, but then when she would go to crawl she would cry. Like when she’d put that direct pressure on it.

And I was just like, should I take her in? Should I not? Like, ugh, we’re gonna have to go to urgent care or the ER right now cuz of what time it is. And that’s pain in the ass. And like, what if it’s not broken? Then I just wasted four hours of my fucking life on this . I finally decided to take her in. And then I look at her and I was like, I have to wash my child before I go to the er.

thinking like you bring a toddler in with a broken bone, you already have some like greater scrutiny and like my child was just filthy head to toe. Yeah. Like probably had been sweaty and then like went outside into like the dusty dirt and just got like caked and she had like food on her f I mean, you know, you know how toddlers get, they’re just crusty.

They go from zero to disgusting. Yeah. In like four minutes . So I like bathed my toddler and then went to the ER with her. Cause I was like, I would love to not have CPS called on me for my child having a broken arm. And then we get there and she’s like, chill chiller doesn’t care about this broken wrist one bit unless she’s trying to crawl.

So the lady at the front desk like, how can I help you? And I’m like, I think my kid broke her arm. And they were like that one. . Okay. And so of course they don’t get us in until everybody else is in there. The ER is full of children for some reason, only children, . Oh, God. And then like, she was totally fine.

The doctor comes in, doesn’t even touch her. He’s like, she’s using her arm fine. I was like, I still need you to X-ray it. Okay, . And he’s like, but she’s displaying a full range of motion. I was like, that’s great. Can we please X-ray my child’s arm? So they do, and they’re all like, oh, wow. She’s not even crying.

And I was like, none of you believe me. Wonderful. You know, like half an hour later he comes in, he’s like, yep, it’s broken. Yeah, I told you. Thank I did know that. All right. See how I drove all the way here?

And then we’ll wait. You’re better than me. Because Heidi was limping one day when she was lira’s age and she’s just hopping around, smiling, laughing, having a great time for a minute. I was like, maybe she’s just like trying out this new skill hopping. And I was like, Hmm. I videoed. I’m like, look how funny she is.

And then I went to get her hip X-rayed because I was like, maybe she’s got hip dysplasia like I had when I was a baby. And they’re like, her hip is fine, but we’re pretty sure she probably had the tibia fracture that toddlers get from jumping off of high things. Oh my gosh. She’ll like she just casually had a broken leg and I was like videoing it.

Like, oh my God, she’s so cute. But she never cried. I get it. I thought if Lyra had not cried, I would’ve been like, okay, they have like rubber bone. . I don’t know. Yeah. Well and I guess it’s like a buckle fracture. Yeah. So it’s not like, it’s not like broken in half or anything. . It’s just like the bone, like bulged out where it got too compressed.

Yeah. And you know, everyone’s like, how did this happen? How did it happen? I’m like, literally she fell down while running. Nothing exciting. Like, my children chase each other across the house full speed, screaming like demons . And usually they both fall in the process. And I was told I wasn’t home, which gave me dirty looks of course from all the doctors.

I was like, I wasn’t home. My mother-in-law told me she fell while running on the floor. Nothing exciting. . Yeah. And like the orthopedist we went to too was a huge asshole. Just awful, awful. Aren’t they kind of all ? I don’t know. Yeah, like I, I actually, I thought that would be fine cuz it was. an early morning scheduled appointment, maybe not enough time for anybody to get pissed off.

We were like first patient of the day. Mm-hmm. , you know, and I go in and , I mean, this was probably my bad, but she was like, what happened? I was like, well, she has a buckle fracture. And she was like, what happened? I was like, she has a buckle fracture, . And then she just gave me this look. I was like, oh, you mean, how did that happen?

Yes. I can tell you that. Immediately she was already pissed at me, . Oh my God. And you know, as she’s telling me then that she’s going to ca give her a hard cast up to her shoulder. And I was like, what? And as she’s doing this, like my daughter is on the table with the nurse, just like letting the nurse do whatever she wants to her arm and the brace and everything.

And she’s like, well, children this age just rip these braces off. And any cast below the elbow, they just rip off and they don’t like them. Like, as my daughter behind her is like displaying none of this behavior . And I was like, okay, but. is the brace she has on now as effective for healing the fracture as a hard cast.

And she was like, well, I guess so. It does say that in the literature. And I was like, okay. And you’re saying the only reason you wanna put a hard cast above her elbow is because you don’t want her to pull it off. And she was like, I, yes, I suppose that’s all. And I was like, okay. So what I’m thinking here is that it’s really my problem if my daughter’s fussy about the cast.

And it’s also gonna be a problem for me that because she eats with her hands, If I can’t remove the cast, it’s gonna smell like a dead animal in a week. And she was like, oh yeah, it’s awful when parents bring babies in who’ve been eating with their hands. And I’m like, mm-hmm. . So, aw, it sounds like it’s more awful for the parents and the children who had to wear those casts, which she did not like me saying

And I was like, so I think I’m gonna stick with the removable brace if you’re saying it’s as effective for healing if we can keep it on. And she was so mad and I was like, okay, so we’re doing nothing today. Bye. Like why? Why am I here? Why? I dunno, you still get paid. I just don’t understand. She gave me this look like I was being a negligent parent, you know?

And she was like, oh, well, we’ll see what happens when you come back in in three weeks. Like, I’m gonna come back in having not had my daughter wear the brace the whole time. I get it that like, that might be the case with some people, but like you don’t have to be that rude. No. If that’s what happens when I come back in, that’s what happens.

You know? And that’s my own damn fault. , but like I am absolutely going to opt for a removable version so my child does not rot away like a pile of compost in her cast . Like Jesus . Even my grandma, when I told her, she was like, oh yeah, your Aunt Madeline had one and it was disgusting. By the time we got it off, she was like two and she broke her wrist.

No. Yeah. Honestly, you know, just at least you brought her, you know, just, I know. Be like, listen lady, this is only one child that you’ve actually seen. Imagine all the other kids who aren’t even wearing a brace. . Who should be . Yeah. And I think she’ll be fine. She is. She’s only ripped it off in a rage like twice.

That’s pretty good. And then let me put it back on. Pointing to it going, ow. Oh, . Well, I did see a meme. the other day and I absolutely cracked up because it was so accurate. So before we get into the episode, I just wanted to read you this meme from Witty Idiot at Steven CBA maybe. Hmm. It says, what do you get when you mix onset Seasonal effective disorder, good old fashioned, everyday anxiety, ADHD, and depression.

A midterm election, one less hour of sunlight, followed by a full blood moon, total lunar eclipse. Mf. First we’re about to find out. . Oh God. . This is unfortunate. . And then we recorded this episode, Reminder that we both do consults. So if you still think we’re emotionally stable enough to care for you, those links are always in the show notes.

We do reserve the recording days to take our filters off. Yes. And be ourselves. But I, I do promise you, we, we leave it here in the studio and we will focus on you and your problems. Yes. If you wanna be seen by us. So far, I have not become hysterical in a professional setting yet. ? Not yet. Not yet. We, this is what we’re, we package so far down that when it comes out, we have to let it out on a forever recorded

Oh my gosh. Patrons to thank, we’ve got Ashton M from Lumberton, Texas, and Susan from British Columbia, Canada. Canada, Canada. , Susan and Ashton, thank you so much for becoming patrons. Your support means the world to us and helps support the podcast financially. Pays for our audio engineer and the podcast transcriptions that we have done.

Professionally. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Let’s take a minute to thank one of our sponsors, and when we come back, we’re gonna answer a question about pumping network. Great.

All right. It’s Maureen here, and I want to tell you that I have finally set up a link so you can instantly book virtual lactation consults with me. Thank the Lord . I know Heather, it took me a long time to take the leap from in-person visits to virtual, but I did it. You’re gonna love it. I love doing virtual consults.

They are the best. It serves more people. I’m so glad you took the plunge. Thank you. And if you guys out there wanna book some time with me, you can go to highland birth and then click on my lactation services tab. Is that H I G H l A N D? Yes. Okay. . I will see you on Zoom everybody.

Okay. Welcome back. We have a question from a listener. Why don’t you read it cuz I think I have a good answer for this one. Okay. She actually asked us in the Facebook group originally, so if you’re new to us, we do have a Facebook support group called Breastfeeding for Busy Moms and the Milk Minute Podcast.

Mm-hmm. . And this is from Aaliyah. Paez from ca. And Aaliyah says, hello. Have any of you ever taken two pumps to work? I’m a special education teacher, currently 32 weeks pregnant with number six, and I’m planning on getting the specter synergy, gold, and willow go. I’m planning on pumping four times well away from my baby, once in the car, once during teacher pe, once at lunch, and once during afternoon recess.

During teacher pe, I must monitor my own students and I have recess duty once a week, so those will need to be portable sessions. However, I wanna use a wall pump for the car and lunch sessions to ensure proper removal of milk. Is this too ambitious? I know it won’t be wise to use a wearable exclusively.

And after dealing with the formula shortage this past year, I really wanna do all I can to provide this baby with adequate breast. , if you can afford it, this is a great idea. Yeah, love it. But I did this because I was like, look, most of the time while I’m at work, I have time to sit with my spectra that works best, but sometimes I don’t.

And if I’m at a birth, no idea when I’m gonna be able to sit and pump. So I would actually put my wearable on when I knew, like things we’re getting to the point where I couldn’t sit and pump, even if I didn’t then didn’t use it. And it was just sitting in my bra. , but I could turn it on randomly if I needed to and then just keep it on till I could empty it.

I think it’s a great idea when you have a little bit of an unpredictable work life. Mm-hmm. , I love it. And you know, as far as the four times, so she was gonna pump four times. Mm-hmm. , I think that, you know, probably by baby number six, she’s got a pretty good idea about her milk storage capacity. And we will link that episode in the show notes.

Yeah. So if you’re wondering about milk storage capacity, it kind of depends on how much you can hold at a time. Mm-hmm. on how many times you actually need to pump at work to maintain your supply. Yeah. So go check that out if you have any questions. And Aaliyah, we love your plan and I don’t know that the Synergy Gold is necessary.

You could just get the regular Spectra S two and save your money and that way you can afford the Willow Go, which is not cheap. . It’s cheaper than the regular Willow, but it’s still not cheap. So that might be a nice compromise if you’re looking to save some dollars. And of course I always send people to Merc, the app Merc.

It seems like that’s where everyone is selling their breast pumps new in box. Yeah. People that are choosing to formula feed are still getting their pump free through insurance and then selling it on Merc. And I had a Spectra S two delivered to my doorstep seven hours after I ordered it for a hundred bucks.

What? That’s crazy. New inbox. Yes. Wild. With a little backpack. That’s cute. . I know. So check it out and no, you’re not being too ambitious. I would never tell anyone they’re being too ambitious. Follow your pumping dreams. . Yeah. Okay. Well I have a toddler now. Heather Vira is like, what, almost 20 months or something?

Yeah. Yeah. So you know, she’s like a real human now. She has thoughts and opinions and plans. So many plans and yeah, we’re still nursing and it is really, really different from the last time. And you know, for those of you who haven’t listened to like every single episode absolutely obsessively, it’s okay.

We still love you too. Episode 10, I think we talked about nursing toddlers and I talked a lot about my experience with Griffin who was like ki kind of what a lot of people think about when they think about nursing. A toddler who just couldn’t constantly wants boob and is like really pushy about it.

And nurses, all the freaking time . And my, I lira’s not like that. And I didn’t know it could be this way. Okay, well that’s good to know. So what’s Lira’s schedule like then? Does she want it? Definitely at certain times. Does she ever do the drive by feedings? Like, tell me what’s happening. So I okay, let me start from the beginning.

I was a lot more intentional about setting boundaries with her around 12 months because I didn’t want her to be like, Griffin was. I wanted to make those like really easy boundaries to set. So she doesn’t do a lot of the drive by nursing unless I let her, like she would if I just sat there topless. I’m sure she’d come over for a sip now and then, but if she asks for milk and I’m like, what about a snack?

She usually goes for the snack, which is crazy, especially if she’s like happy and it’s the middle of the day. Like she usually could go all day without nursing. She likes to nurse at nap time and bedtime and sometimes at wake up time, but she does not have to nurse at all those times. Hmm. So sometimes we just nurse like once a day and sometimes it’s like all day when she’s having diarrhea and vomiting like the last week.

So that actually probably brings up questions for people. So if your kid is mostly just nursing morning and night and then you have this random illness and they nurse all day, is there anything in there? You know what I mean? Maybe , maybe, but, but does it matter? It’s always my question, right? I know. I think we spend so much time when they’re little, little, mm-hmm.

worrying about supply that we forget that it doesn’t really matter when they’re older. It doesn’t that, and that’s the thing like, you know, we. When she was feeling really sick, we definitely nursed about 10 times as much as we usually do, and that’s fine. And did she get more milk? Yeah, probably a little bit.

You know, I’m sure my body was like, well, better like, you know, start up the old engine again and get things going, , but like, am I suddenly engorged now that I’m like away from the house and not nursing her all day? No, not at all. I think like, I probably heard some more letdowns than I usually have after like a full day of her nursing all the time.

But just, it’s not that much, it’s not that significant. She’s, she, it’s mostly like she’s nursing for comfort at that point. And the comfort isn’t that her belly’s full. It’s the like sucking process, you know, like that’s what does the hormonal like comfort thing in their body. So yeah. Is she using me as a pacifier then?

A hundred percent. Who cares? That’s fine. . Yeah. I mean I guess as long as it doesn’t bother you mm-hmm. , then it’s a win-win for everybody. Yeah. And like she wasn’t eating very much and vomiting, so I was like, any fluid we can get down is great. So I’m happy with that. I did see a question recently in the group about should I give my three month old Pedialyte?

No. Because she’s sick and, or is breast milk good enough? Breast milk’s fine. Mm-hmm. , it’s 80% water. So as long as they’re nursing, they’re drinking. Yeah. And I think there was at least one day Lyra this week, like didn’t eat anything and barely drink anything. She had milk and a Popsicle. Yeah, she’s fine.

She was a little dehydrated, but she had like the minimum diapers that I felt okay with. Mm-hmm. . But it’s really nice to have that because she’ll pretty much, if she feels like crap, she’ll nurse. Yeah. You know, . But the interesting thing with her is though, like with Griffin, anytime I offered him, Boob. He would take it anytime he was willing.

Sometimes I offer her and she’s like, no, I’m busy. I’m like, I’m sorry. What? , does it hurt your feelings? Yes, it does. . Yes it does. And my year and a half year old basically looks at me like I’m an inconvenience to her for offering her a food of my body. Yeah, . Ouch. Stab me in the heart. . Yeah. Yeah. She’s a little bit indifferent toward it a lot of the time and it is a huge 180 from my last toddler nursing experience and I’m just like, is this because her life is so much more interesting cuz she has a really entertaining older brother.

Is it just her personality? Is it because I was like much more intentional about like getting her used to not nursing when I didn’t want to and taking snacks instead? Kind of in that 12, 13 month range? The answer is yes. Yeah, right. All of it . Yeah. But it’s interesting and you know, like I was just sick and like super dehydrated as well.

And I don’t worry about your supply at this point with toddlers people. Like, if I had dried up this week, I don’t think she would have cared. She would still have nursed , you know? And it, it doesn’t matter. Like she’s still healthy. It’s okay if this is the end of nursing. It’s not. I’m still making milk because I think at this point my body’s just like old, faithful, you know,

And it doesn’t make it gross, by the way, if they’re not transferring that much milk. No, it does not make it anything but nursing. Yeah. You know, it’s nursing serves many, many purposes for development, for emotional health. as well as nutrition antibodies. I mean, the, the volume of milk, it does not make it more Okay or less.

Okay. Socially. Yes. You know, so, like, let’s just say that. Mm-hmm. also. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, yeah, it’s just, it’s interesting there. I mean, I just really marvel at it sometimes when, like, my daughter comes up and like asks for milk in the way that I taught her to, instead of ripping my shirt off mm-hmm. and trying to remove a breast by herself.

Mm-hmm. , she like, what, what I taught her, well, for a while she was using the milk sign. She decided no more. That sign does not exist to her anymore. Now she points to the one she wants and signs for more. Aw. That’s, it’s on my lap, you know, gets comfy and. Oh, she does the more sign where she puts her two little pinchers together.

Yeah. Aw, that’s really cute. Well, how about behavior though? Like, has she, is her latch any different? Because we hear a lot about Yeah. Her latch sucks. Really , so we hear a lot about older babies causing nipple sensitivity. Yeah. And I would like your opinion on this. Yeah. I, so she, I don’t think she gave me a single nipple injury until after 12 months.

Wow. And she has twice bitten me, not like, I, I can’t remember. It was like the first time, like something startled her while she was nursing. And I don’t even remember how the second one happened. I just looked down and I was like, huh, skip on my nipple. Weird . But now she has teeth. She didn’t have to have any teeth the first year really.

And yeah, she’s just lazy about it. Like when she does nurse sometimes, especially in the middle of the day when she’s distracted, you know, it’s like she’ll like latch on and then like slowly turn her head around, look at stuff and watch a TV show. And, but it does, the, the, I think the combined problem is it doesn’t really hurt me.

My nipples are just have no nerves right now. , and, you know, she has teeth, her mouth is really different. She’s used to using her mouth in a different way. She doesn’t take bottles or anything like that. So that combination then kind of does allow more injury. because like I’m not paying attention and she doesn’t need a good latch.

She doesn’t like rely on a good latch to get all her food. Right. So how do you fix it? Well, right now I’m not fixing it , but you can, I mean, so if it’s bothering me like the other day I will s scab on my nipple and I was like, that does hurt a little bit actually. So what I go through then if I’m like, I would like a better latch is to make her actually sit or lay down.

Not like stand and wiggle her butt the whole time. She’s nursing right? for her. And I like koala usually works best or side lying. So sometimes I will just refuse to nurse her unless we’re laying down cuz she has a great latch sideline, but she’s not distracted them. Right. We’re like in bed. So sometimes I’m just like, Hey, you want a nurse?

Let’s go up to bed. So we go lay down, you know, and I look at her and I’m like, stick out your tongue. and she sticks out her tongue and then I give her my nipple and she opens and has her tongue already out to trough. And I think that’s a lot of the problem people have with toddlers is they stop troughing with their tongue, especially if they’re not thumb suckers and they’re not pacifier babies.

Mm-hmm. They just don’t need that for anything else, right? Mm-hmm. that or a lot of people complain that they can just feel the top teeth like no matter what. Mm-hmm. and I think it’s cuz they chin tuck all the time. Mm-hmm. . Yep. So they do that thing cuz they can where your nipples really stretchy and they have such good suction that they will put the nipple in their mouth and then they’ll tuck their chin and kind of like smoosh their nose around on your breast and it’s like impossible to not have the teeth involved when you’re doing that.

So what helps me with that is if we do sideline nursing, but I flip her upside down. Oh. Mm-hmm. , because then she has to just change the angle of her head to make it work. And it’s backwards and it works and it’s fun for her. Much better and it’s more interesting. And she kicks me in the head the whole time.

And what else could you ask for? Right? ? , she like shoves her toes in my ear. And what Oh my gosh. But it actually works really well when I’m feeling sensitive. When I’m feeling like every time she latches, I can feel her stupid little top teeth , like . And that’s, you start to think, you look at them and you’re like, those fangs of doom,

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. O other questions that I’m thinking of just right off the top of my head that I’ve heard from other people are, how do you know how much water they need during the day? Mm-hmm. , if you’re nursing irregularly, and I mean, I think I know what you’re gonna say, but I’ll let you speak to it.

Okay. Well, my kids both love to drink water. And so I just always have a cup of water out for them all day long and they usually drink it, but I, at this age, unless your child is like, you know, they’re still drinking large volumes of breast milk, which some are at a year and a half just don’t think of milk as like hydration.

Then think of it as like a vitamin they’re taking and give them the amount of water they would have if they’re not having, you know, milk or formula. Mm-hmm. and also kids are kind of weirdos the way they eat. The toddlers are, they’ll eat like 500 calories a day. Mm-hmm. . And sometimes they’ll eat all of it in the morning and then they will meet their caloric requirement and then they just don’t want to eat the rest of the day.

Or sometimes they’ll do like every other day. Right. It’s super weird. That’s so worse. It’s super weird. But the main thing is they’re neurologically intact. Yeah. Which means that we can rely on them to let us know when they’re hungry and thirsty. Mm-hmm. to a point now if you happen to notice that they’re super grumpy.

Mm-hmm. . always offer a drink and a snack. Seriously, because they get really grumpy and sometimes they don’t know what to ask for. They’re like all clumped, you know? Yes. And then you’re like, you know what? You need some strawberries. And they’re like, oh my God, I did need strawberries. So like, they’re not gonna let themselves die from hunger or thirst.

No. But they might have some like mood irregularities. watch like us, us . Well, it’s funny you say that. So I told you I ran into your clients at Audra State Park. Yes. The other day. That was lovely. So like we were ascending this like stone staircase, like up to them at the top of this like beautiful cliff outlook.

And my children were just melting the fuck down. , like losing it. And we get to the top and I was like, oh, hey. So good to see you. Okay, children, who’s hangry? Everybody. Let’s sit down and have water and food right now. , right? Yeah. You are losing your minds. I’m losing my mind. So lovely to see you. Happy couple with your new baby and your cute dog.

But we are all losing it over here. Yeah. One time, this is so random, but maybe the last time I ever took a child into the woods by myself, , I had picked up food from Kroger on the way to bring Theo by myself to Cooper’s Rock in West Virginia, and he chose egg rolls. Okay. From Kroger. Sure. Whatever. Fine.

Yeah. And he had been eating them regularly, so like I knew he liked them. Oh no. Not today. No. So we, we get to the same point, meltdown point, and I’m like, oh, lucky for you, mommy brought egg rolls. And he took the last egg roll and throws it directly into the pile of leaves, near the cliff. We’re gonna say he threw it off the cliff, near the cliff, but then was sad that it was gone.

Sure. And was hungry. Sure was. And, and now I’m. I for a split second, I was like, maybe I could find it in the leaves. Yeah. And then I was like, Heather, no, like . Like maybe also I’ll find a rattlesnake. There’s so many rattlesnakes, like Cooper’s Rocks. It’s crazy. Don’t go into the woods everyone. How many times have I, no, this go to the woods.

We did, oh my God. That state park. So it was my husband’s birthday and he was like, I just wanna go for a family hike. Like it’s been so long since we did that. And I was like, okay, you know, am I a little bit stressed out when we get there? And I was like, okay, like you’re bringing the backpack. Can you also bring like a baby carrier?

Make sure you have wipes and diapers and snacks and water. And he was like, got it all. Of course, when we’re like a mile out the trail, we realize we do not have a baby carrier and our toddler. Having a complete meltdown. And it’s like, I remembered this trail when we had been to last year and Griffin was like four being like really cool and scenic and like, oh, there’s a boardwalk with railings.

Like, it’ll be great. No, no. The bottom rung on the railings was like a foot and a half high over like a sheer drop off over the river. That lira could easily just have like walked off of . I’ll say it again, don’t go into the world. And, and Griffin, who now is very strong and able was literally like scaling, like bouldering, you know, while Lira was like teetering near edges and I was just, and she refuses to hold my hand.

Guys, this independence thing of like not needing me, not needing to nurse all the time is not the thing like Griffin was a Clinger stage. 100 would never let go me. I didn’t even have to hold his hand in public cuz he would clinging to my leg . And it was great though cuz I was like, I don’t need to keep track of this kid.

If somebody tries to kidnap him, they’re getting bitten and because he was a biter. Oh God. And he will never leave my side. Lyra will willingly just walk into traffic. She’ll walk off into the woods alone. Same. Doesn’t care with Heidi. Yeah, if I try to hold her hand there is no greater offense that I could do her.

It. It is insane. So yeah, I ended up like sitting on the side of this trail nursing her while like, just feeling terrible while my husband and son just like hiked ahead. I was like, stop waiting for us. Like just don’t, it’s making me feel worse about this whole situation. Yeah. Just go that like everybody caught waiting.

happy birthday. Yeah, go swim in the river cuz it was November 6th and it was 85 degrees. I was like, great. This is. Horrifying, but go swim in the river. and . I’m just gonna nurse this baby on the side of the trail and then try to somehow get all the way down to you without holding her hand. . Well, I think a lot of p Oh, first of all, we need to take a little break to thank a sponsor.

Okay? Yes. Let’s, and when and when we come back I have more questions about nursing a toddler, cuz I never did nurse a toddler. Although Heidi still asks if she can suck on my nipples from time to time. don’t fall for it. Folks, once they stop doing it for a certain amount of time, they can’t be trusted to do it correctly.

well, she can’t be trusted. . All right, we’ll be right back.

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Every single time I sat down to nurse, it was like the Sahara Desert had taken up residents in my mouth. Same. And my go-to drink right now is Liquid iv. Oh me too. Liquid IV makes your water work harder cuz it has a hydration multiplier in it. That’s great tasting non gmo. And it actually has cellular transport technology that delivers hydration to the bloodstream faster and more efficiently than water alone.

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Welcome back, everybody. . Okay. I got questions. Okay, more questions. I’m ready. You were just talking about nursing in public. Yes. So let’s talk about nursing, a toddler in public, because a lot of people have questions about this. Like, do you just save the nursing for at home? What if they’re having a meltdown and requesting the breast when you’re out in public?

The popping on and off, the maximum nipple exposure. You know, twiddling, like the whole behavior stuff that happens in public, how are we supposed to manage that? Because that would Yeah, that would really get me, I think that would get me, it does. So I, Lira doesn’t usually want to nurse in public unless there’s a meltdown, which I’m fine with.

Griffin was different. We nursed every fucking place in the universe all the time till he was like four years old. , . But I, so like at this point, you know, I’ve collectively. Breastfed for like five and a half years or something. I’m cool with it. And I do have giant boobs and they do just come all the way out at the park and wherever else we are.

And that’s okay. And I have had people say weird stuff about it all, whatever. I’m okay with it. But if, if that’s not your thing, , the most discreet way that I’ve nursed her is in a carrier, especially if she has a big bucket hat. , you know those hats that just like give them like a halo of brim. Mm-hmm.

because that kind of covers my whole boob or most of it. Or like if she pops on and off in the carrier with like the hood or the hat, you can’t really tell and it’s fine. So if she’s like being really fussy and needs to nurse on and off, I usually just throw in the carrier or I’ll just like, you know, instead of pulling my boob over my shirt, I pull it under just so I have like a little like screen if I need to like let it fall over my nipple for a minute while she decides whatever she’s doing with her life.

until she wants to nurse again and you are gonna flash some nip at an old man that didn’t expect it, you know it’s gonna happen and some little kid is gonna be like, mommy, why can’t I see that lady’s boob? You know? And it’s okay. It’s gonna be fine. , you just yell. Come on over. feeding the world. No, I mean, it’s.

Most of the time people don’t say anything, even if they’re thinking weird stuff, you know, cuz they’re, they wanna be polite and they think they’re more polite than you. Right. , . But really, like, you’re gonna probably have uncomfortable, weird, awkward moments and it’s okay because that’s what having a child is.

If it wasn’t that, it’s your five year old telling everybody in the Walmart bathroom that you have your period, or that you just made a really stinky poop . Or it’s, you know, your nine year old telling somebody about like your vagina or like . Yeah. It’s, it’s fine. It’s just part of parenthood. Yeah. And if other people have a problem with that, that’s not your problem.

Let’s dig into that a little bit more , and I think this kind of ties back with where we started the show today. I think a lot of people that have toddlers. Real tired. Yes. Like emotionally tired because it’s like playing chess all day long with an emotionally unstable terrorist and Yeah. Who, who’s like a, just like actively trying to harm themselves.

Yeah. Yeah. And so there are people out there who are fine with it, you know, like they parent just fine. Yes. And they’re not physically and spiritually and emotionally affected by their toddler. I am. We’re not those people. Is it okay, ? I didn’t believe that those people existed to be totally honest, until I really started to become an active midwife.

And I would, I would, I mean, catch babies for people whose, it was like number 10, number six, number eight. And I’m just like, who in their right mind can have this many children and be sane? And I started asking blatantly, being like, is motherhood hard for you? and they were like, no, it’s the most joyful thing.

It’s so, or like, it’s the easiest thing in my life. Like, my job is really hard and I hate my job, but I love being a mom. And I’m like, cool. I’m the opposite and I’m okay with that. And it, it did take a long time for me to realize like, one, I really wanted to be a mother and it was not what I thought it was going to be.

Like my nervous system does not respond the way that I wanted it to, to my children. same. And it’s confusing because I’m a very caring mm-hmm. person. Mm-hmm. . And I would say that I’m not that selfish. It’s not being selfish, but it feels selfish. It does. When you’re, when you feel like you can’t meet their every need.

Yeah. Or no matter when you do it, it’s never Right. . Yeah. And I, and I think I have. , I think I’ve come around much more to the realization that I may never like be at peace while parenting, and that’s okay. I’m still a little bit annoyed about that , like I def I, and, and I’m like a calm parent most of the time.

And I think I’m a very good parent. But it takes a huge emotional and physical toll on me. I mean, I just feel wrecked. Yeah. By the end of the day with my children, and I have two. You have two? Yeah. You know, , like, and I, and, and at the end of a day working, say like, I am at a very long birth with a primip, like doing lots of physical support and, you know, say it was like a really crazy thing and I had to manage a hard shoulder.

So should, like, I come home at the end of the day feeling good after that. Mm-hmm. . But after a day of like, just doing like normal things with my two children, I feel worse. Yeah. Can I tell you a low point? Yeah. . So this weekend I, my husband was gone for four days in a row. So there was no work to be done other than mothering.

Yeah. And so I could, that’s work. I could no longer, right? I could no longer hide behind. I would be so, such a better mother if I didn’t have all these other things to do because I literally just put all the other things to do out of my head. Cuz I knew it wasn’t an option and it was still hard. And I think I was worse at it because I didn’t have the distractions that I feel good at, you know?

And so, We had a rough morning on Sunday. I won’t get into too many details, but, and, and I love my neighbor girlfriend, . Okay. She’s like eight years old. Yeah. And she is super cute. But my daughter ran over to play with her and I ran over to get her and Heidi was still in her pajamas and so was I at like 11:00 AM And this little girl was like, she’s been kind of grumpy.

And I said, yeah, I know. I’m sorry. I don’t know what’s going on with her. And she goes, just one suggest. I was like, okay. And she goes, maybe if you got her out of her pajamas, she wouldn’t feel like that . Wow. And I was like, I am going to unlive myself. . You’re like, that was some shade from my eight year old.

I was like, you know what? You’re probably right. No, and you’re probably a better mom than me. Sundays are pajama days. I know. I was like, buddy, if I could get myself out of these pajamas Yeah. I would have. Yeah. But thank you for the hot tip. You know? And it’s just getting a toddler and myself out of pajamas is harder for me.

Yeah. Then solving a marketing funnel issue. Yes. For business. Yes. Yeah. It’s, it’s hard. I mean, I, and I don’t know, I don’t think there’s a way to fundamentally change myself so that motherhood is easy. Like I, I think there’s things I can do to make it easier. Yeah. But I’m never gonna be able to like, make it so that being touched.

a certain amount by my children, doesn’t like trigger sensory problems for me. You know, like I’m never gonna be able to change the fact that like, when my children hit a certain amount of decibels, I just have to walk away. . Right. . You know, I feel like every time I try to actually parent, like I’m in discipline mode or I’m in explanation mode of like, this happened.

So I’m trying to make sure you understand. I feel like there’s a British lady that’s about to come on and say outcome unknown , where it’s just like, who knows if it’s sinking in? If I’m doing more damage. Yeah. If it’s gonna be okay and time will tell. How much time? I don’t know. But so I, there was some time, I think it was when I was pregnant with Lyra and I went to my midwife who’s a friend of mine and I didn’t know what I was gonna do and I just like cried to her because I was like, I can’t have two children, it’s too much.

And she was just like, look like. It doesn’t matter what you do. Like you’re a great parent. You’re never gonna be like a horrible, abusive person. Like you’re not, you’re gonna do your best and your kids are gonna be who they are. Like, she was like, my children were awful. They’re wonderful humans. Now I know them.

They’re my age. You know, they’re like the kindest gentles men, you know, such good fathers. She was like, no, they were hell children. They burned down the neighbor’s fucking barn. . She was like, they were awful. Like, I thought I was gonna commit myself to the, you know, hospital because I couldn’t handle it.

And then my husband had to be committed to the hospital, so I had to stay. And I was like, okay, okay. And she was like, and I didn’t . She was like, I don’t know, but why didn’t do anything different And they turned out fine in the end. , I think this is like the same thing about first timers who are pregnant.

If you’ve made it this far in the episode. Bless you. Yeah. And sorry it’s gonna be fine. But you know, when you’re first time. Pregnant and you’re like planning for labor and delivery and parenting, and the person walks in who’s got four kids, and they go, you’ll be fine. And that confidence of just like, I did it, you can do it.

And just having like an, an older person who’s raised children, they are fine and functional now, or sometimes they’re not fine and functional. Yeah. But they’re like, listen, I got one fine functional one. I got one who’s not. I parented them basically the same. Mm-hmm. , who knows, but what am I gonna do about it now?

Yeah. And they’re like, what are you gonna do about it? And I’m like, I, I know. I think it’s so valuable to have older friends who have been through it. I, you know, when Ivan and I first moved to the area, the first friends we made were pretty much all in their sixties and. I don’t know why , you know, farmer market, market probably.

And it, it was, I love those friends and you know, I, I know this one couple who yeah, I mean, one of their children, they had to cut out of their lives. He isn’t, he is very mentally unstable. He’s harmful, he’s horrible. He’s, you know, there’s something very wrong and he will not accept help. And they tried for so long and their other child grew up in the same house.

Same stuff. Lovely. Wonderful human. Yeah. You know, and they’re, they’re like kind of your classic like hippie parents, gentle parented, you know, before it was a thing. And like it, they feel terrible about it because somehow they feel like maybe it’s their fault still. But I don’t think it was. . I think he has, you know, a problem that they didn’t cause.

But you know, seeing that is actually kind of hopeful for me in a way. Cause I’m like, okay, like that does tell me. There is some amount of control we don’t have. And that’s actually comforting in Parenthood. . Yeah. I have some Romanian neighbors who I absolutely love, and their kid is 18 now and he’s great.

He’s perfectly fine. Mm-hmm. . But I was having a hard time with Theo when he was like three, you know? Yeah. And I just broke down to her one day. I saw her outside walking and I was just like, Maddie, it’s awful and blah, blah, blah. She said, listen in her Romanian accent that I will not try to copy. No. She was like, listen, George was terrible.

He was terrible. And he was born with a problem with authority , which means parenting him never works. So we just gave up and he’s gonna be who he’s gonna be. . And I was like, what do you mean you just gave up ? Oh my God. And she’s like, I mean, we literally just. Gave up, like we just did not discipline him anymore.

And he ended up self-regulating very well, . And she’s like, why are we gonna stress ourselves out? Because he was born with authority problems. And I was like, what is happening in Romania? I think , maybe I should just give up. That’s an option. Yeah. What, and I guess you can do whatever you want as a parent.

Mm-hmm. , maybe we’re trying too hard. Maybe. Is that possible? Yeah, I think it’s possible. And I, I think I am still working on letting go of the expectation that my parents had for me. Mm. And let me explain that. So it’s like I don’t impose those on my children, but I feel them strongly every time we visit my family.

and I’m reminded like, oh, like my children do not behave in the way that I was expected to and I still don’t parent like I want them to. But it stresses me out that those expectations and where my kids’ reality are at are not closer. Mm-hmm. , I don’t know. Even though I don’t want it to, like, I don’t want them to be quiet, well-behaved children, to be totally honest.

Like, I, I don’t, I want them to be wild, amazing, passionate kids, even if it is a little bit harder, you know? Cuz I think, I think they’re gonna be more stable adults , if they don’t repress their emotions for 18 straight years. . But it’s still like there’s something I can’t let go of about that, and that’s like one of the more stressful things.

I don’t know. I think it’s important to do. Of parenting inventory. Yeah. And I think we’re gonna bring an expert on next week. Yes, please. Let’s bring on an expert to ask about toddler behavior stuff and maybe dare I say, parenting styles, and toddler behavior stuff. You know, I think that this is one of the hardest things about motherhood and I think breastfeeding can be used in good ways, and I think it can also be manipulative.

Mm-hmm. in a lot of ways for kids that age. And also for us, you know, it’s like, are we relying on it too much? Is it like, what are our complicated feelings around nursing a toddler? You know what does it say about us that we get re feelings of rejection when they don’t want a nurse? Like, how do we transition from a baby to a child gracefully?

and parent that, you know. So I definitely am interested in hearing about what this expert has to say. Me too. Cuz it just feels like we are absolutely drowning every day. Parenting. We’re shooting in the dark here. . How many metaphors can we throw at ? I don’t know. We’re building the plane while we’re flying it.

Yeah. I don’t know. Oh dear. Well, I’m excited for that, for some professional guidance. I hope you guys are too. Thanks for sticking with us. We do have an award. Yes, we do. Let’s take another minute to thank a sponsor and then we’re gonna get to our favorite segment and close it out on a positive note.

Woohoo. I think this has all been largely positive, but at least relatable. Maybe relatable. I hope it’s relatable. Good God. . I hope we’re not the only two out there that feel like this, but yes, we’re gonna take a break and when we come back we have a really cool award, so stay tuned.

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Welcome back everyone. It’s time. Yeah. Thanks for staying till the end of our absolute chaos episode, . It’s been a long time since we’ve done one. It’s on theme for toddlerhood though. Let me just say this. Felt like a day with my toddler . Yeah, it did. There was crying. There’s gonna be lots of snacking and like lovely laughter, you know?

Yeah. The, the laughter of a one-year-old. Just the best. It is. The best. The yuck yuck. Belly laugh. Oh my gosh. Like Lyra was belly laugh. Like so she found. . It’s one of those really boring like Montessori toys that I’d forgotten about and we were trying to find the pieces for her. Every time we found a piece, it was like absolute joy, belly laughter.

Aw. I was like, this is great. . That’s awesome. That’s, that really is awesome. All right, well today’s award goes to one of our lovely patrons, Christina p. Christina says, I changed jobs and took an entire week off in between and kept the baby back from daycare. I am a less than enougher for three, five ounce bottles, which is what he takes this Monday on my first day back to work.

After taking her week off, I’ve pumped my usual number of times and managed to get six extra ounces. Nice. Being able to have him remove my milk, fixed my ever dwindling supply. Going to take him out Thanksgiving week and Christmas week so we could keep this up, at least through the winter. Good job. Isn’t that great?

Yeah, I’d love that. I mean, isn’t that kind of funny though? Like our pumping output directly makes us. Feel a certain way about our value. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You know, and then all of a sudden rest and nursing directly is the remedy and you’re like, oh, I love when that works because it, it feels too simple to work a lot of the time.

And it’s so lovely that it really can be effective. Yeah, of course. I, I wrote out a few awards. I’ll let you pick one. Okay. I think we’re gonna give her the tune in and pump up award. . I like that. That’s what I thought you would pick . Alright. Christina, tune in and pump up. Good for you. Way to be in tune with your body.

Yeah. Take all the breaks that you need to keep your nursing journey going, and you’ve got one lucky little dude there. All right, well can I read the review please? Okay, great. All right, so this is a review from Apple, from Mama to rg and it is titled Absolute Must Listen. I don’t think I would’ve made it to eight months and counting breastfeeding without Heather and Maureen.

They are true and brilliant professionals offering sound research device because they care about babies and moms, but more importantly, they’re non-judgmental, realistic, and hilarious. Thank you. They recognize one size does not fit all, and that makes their advice so accessible and helpful. Isn’t that nice?

How’s a good one for this episode? It is kind of funny reading such nice things about yourself. I know. Especially it feels a little braggy so bad today. . No, it’s good because we, we stepped into the studio today. Both in tears. , thanks for making our day a little bit better, giving us a space to be ourselves, professional or not

Yeah. And you guys really do keep us going as we move into our third holiday season, by the way, with the podcast, which is, that’s wild. Super wild. We’ve grown. You’ve grown. You could be on your second baby by now for the love of God. Oh my God, . Holy cow. Well, thanks for listening to another episode of the Milk Minute podcast.

The way we change this big system that’s not set up for lactating families is by educating ourselves, our friends, and our loved ones. If you guys wanna support the a, the chaos and good advice, that is us. You can join us on Patreon, You get like bonus stuff and merch, and we tell you things about our lives that we don’t say here, which means they’re really juicy

Yeah. And early and ad-free episodes. Lots of good stuff. So join us there, please. Please. All right. Till next time.


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