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Ep. 106- Our Journey to the Milk Minute and each other!

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This is Maureen Farrell and Heather ONeal and this is The Milk Minute. We’re midwives and lactation professionals bringing you the most up-to-date evidence for all things lactation. So you can feel more confident about feeding your baby, body positivity, relationships, and mental health. Plus, we laugh a little or a lot along the way.

So join us for another episode. Welcome to the Milk Minute, everybody. Welcome. We are in different places geographically, but brought together by Zencaster the recording platform, which we like sometimes. Sometimes. Our hearts are in the same place today. It’s true. And I just redid the studio. So Maureen and I are no longer at the same desk.

We each have our own desk and we are facing each other diagonally. But right now I’m just facing an empty seat. It’s so sad. I’m so sorry. Well, I’m basically in a closet as usual, so. Well, soon enough, my friends, soon enough. And we are really excited because a couple things happening around our office, in this historical building that we rent for the, for my office and my studio is there’s a restaurant going in across from us. So we’re very excited to have a noon beer whenever we record. And then also right behind our studio is going to be my brother and mother’s new gourmet brownie business called The Brownie House. And you can see them at YesBrownies.com. I’m not saying they’re going to increase your milk supply, but they will increase your happiness.

I am very excited because I’m hoping we get to like taste test while we work. A hundred percent. And actually there is about two tons of brownie edges available in the freezer at any given time. Oh my God. Different flavors. I can’t, I will not spend this whole podcast episode talking about the detrimental effects these brownies are gonna have on my, my body and you know, my, my mind really. Cause that’s all I think about for the past two weeks, because we’ve been waiting on this for so long and now they’re finally here and I just want to eat all of them all the time.

Well, maybe we can like have designated brownie snack breaks so we don’t just eat them through every single episode. Oh, we’re going to have to, I mean, we’re just going to have to set limits. Brownie limits. Well, anyway, I’m very excited. Lots of new, amazing things coming. But what I’m really excited for today is actually this episode, because we finally decided that we would take a little walk-through history, but like our histories. Yeah. People want to know, how did you guys become BFFs? How did you become lactation consultants? Why are you midwives if you’re so angry all the time about the system? People want to know. So we’re going to tell you. Yeah, I’m excited too. But first as usual, I have a question from one of our patrons that we can answer.

And then of course at the end of all this, stick around, you might get an award. Someone’s definitely getting an award. Okay. So this question comes from our patron Phoebe, and this is an interesting one. So stick with me. She said that her daycare provider kept telling them that they needed to drop the night feeds to help their 10-month-old sleep better.

She’s reluctant to do it at this point because he’s getting a lot of milk at night, especially being away from her during the day, obviously. She would like to sleep more. She would like him to sleep more. Would it be a problem for her supply if she did that? She’s not getting more than five ounces pumping at work, really. So she feels like they’re making up for that at night. What should she do?

I’m very confused as to why daycare thinks they have the audacity to tell you what to do with your non daycare hours. Just in general I’m offended by that because it, I mean, we all feel like we’re doing the wrong thing all the time anyway, and really there’s 800 right ways to do everything.

And as long as your baby is healthy and happy and you’re healthy and happy you’re doing it right. So if you want to nurse your little nursling all night long, because you don’t get to see them all day and really milk supply or not, it just makes your mommy heart feel good. That’s your prerogative. And you should be able to do it.

Absolutely. I, I kind of feel like, I just want to say kindly, kindly stay in your lane, daycare. Absolutely. If they are giving you advice about things that make the transition from home to daycare easier, listen, and understand that, but really how you and your baby sleep is up to you. And for sure, if you feel like you’re not giving them a lot of milk during the day, they’re absolutely making up for it at night.

Now, if you want to cut out the night feeds and change the way you’re sleeping, you may need to adjust how you’re pumping during the day, or you might find your supply is affected, right? Because if your baby started to sleep through the night, inevitably, they would be nursing differently during the day.

Right. But yeah, echoing what you said, Heather, like you do what works for you and not what Susie from daycare says. Right. And also if you are ready to sleep through the night and you are ready to night wean a little bit, maybe talk to somebody who’s qualified to walk you through that process instead of just quippy little, slightly judgmental pieces of advice when you are dropping your kid off at daycare, which is always 100% stressful.

Oh my gosh. Right. Any, any care provider like anytime I’m doing that transition, it is the most stressful. It really is. So, you know, really, I would say if you’re ready, you could tell daycare, you know what, that is something that we’ve been thinking about. And we are going to work at our own pace with a professional and we’ll let you know if we need anything from you.

That’s what I would say. I don’t know if that’s mean or not. I actually think I would say something that is not so nice. What would you say? I would probably say fuck off. I mean, honestly, though, I might. If it was a bad day, maybe it was a bad day and I was picking up my kid from daycare and they told me to night wean, Heather. Well, maybe. I just, I have very low tolerance for unsolicited advice about my parenting.

I guess I was imagining this was happening in the morning. Maybe not at pickup, maybe at drop off. So in the morning I would definitely be less inclined to say F off, because you’re about to leave your child with them for eight hours. No, but really like, if you want to be diplomatic about it, you can just say like, oh, that’s a, that’s a great idea. I’ll think about that. Thanks. And then never talk about it again. You know, because it’s not their business, frankly. Right. That’s the point.

The point is like, let’s just chalk this up to unsolicited advice, advice from anyone. You don’t have to take it, you just say, oh, thank you so much. We’ll consider it. And just move right along and keep doing what you’re doing. Or if you’re ready to make a change phone a friend that’s actually qualified to help you. And that’s, that’s where I’m going to leave it. Yeah. Did you want to name drop anybody who’s qualified? Oh yeah. I love, I love Lauren Garmon with Growing Great Sleepers and her website is I think it’s sleep, eat, grow, right?

Yeah. It’s SleepEatGrow.com. And Lauren is a breastfeeding mom herself and she’s a certified sleep coach, and she does the gentle sleep training. So she’s kind of the person that I always send everybody to. And I know she does like weekly check-ins and she’s very accessible, which is great. I mean, we just had not too long ago, the spring forward in the clocks.

And I know that some of my patients that work with Lauren we’re super happy to have her because she was right there for all of the little mishaps with the springing forward. And no one had to panic because they knew she had their back, which was great. Okay. So before we head into our episode, super important thing I have to do right now, I need to thank some of our new patrons.

We love our patrons. You guys thank you so much for all of your support. We really, really appreciate it. And you’re making this project so much more sustainable for us so more people can get evidence-based lactation information and you’re making it happen. So here’s our shout out. Okay. So thank you.

Thank you. Thank you to Kate H, Kelsey Z, April P, Morgan C, Emily from Virginia, Katherine from Honolulu, Hawaii, Samantha from Powder Springs, Georgia, and Caitlyn from Canada. Caitlyn from Canada! We appreciate all of your support and we are so happy to have you like in our Patreon community. Yeah, it’s been really great to get to know you all, and we hope you like our behind the scenes, little quips about our life, our mishaps, just as being moms and podcasters and everything else we have going on.

So thank you for not judging us and actually enjoying our messy behind the scenes. Yes, absolutely. And we’ve really, really couldn’t do this without your monetary support. It’s super important. And for everybody else out there, reminder that you can support us for as little as a dollar a month. So 12 bucks a year.And that link is in the show notes. Yeah.

Heather, did you know I have an Etsy shop? Yes, I creep on there regularly.

Well, listeners, if you didn’t know out there, I have an Etsy shop with my personal artwork on there. I have stickers, posters, t-shirts, but my favorite items are my surprise mugs. I have a couple of color changing mugs featuring my little illustrations of volvulus and breasts.

And boy, are they a surprise, especially when you give it to your boss that you do not like, and they pour hot coffee in it and labias abound. I like to give them to like my mom or dad when they visit them a cup of tea and watch their face. And really, I think everybody needs these in their homes. So if you would like one for yourself or anything else that I make, you can visit etsy.com/shop/the wandering w O M six that’s etsy.com/shop/thewanderingwom6, but with the six instead of a B. And of course that link will be in the show notes. Thanks.

All right. Well let’s get into our episode for today. Yeah, let’s talk more about us. Yeah. We try not to do that all the time, but we’re just going to do it today. Well, Heather, I wanted to start way back when, oh God, I don’t know. We’re going to have to dig out some baby pictures though.

Are we going back to the Egyptian Papyrus again? Not to the Ebers Papyrus. Sorry. I would like to go back at least, you know, into the nineties. Okay. Oh, well, we’re going to have to go back to 87, if you want to know more about me. I was born in the year of the dragon. I am a very old millennial at this point.

It’s okay. I am not that far behind you. I was born in 1989, which makes me sound very old these days. Okay. All right. Well good. At least you’re not in the nineties because by the way, did you know that kids can drink now if they were born in 2001? Huh? Yeah. That’s like when you’re checking an ID, that’s the year that you look for now minimum is that one. That job, that job to sell people alcohol and look at their IDs must make you feel so old.

Yeah. When I used to bartend, which if you didn’t know, I used to bartend. That was my job and it, but at the time I was very young and relevant, so it didn’t bother me at all. Oh yeah. Now okay. Well tell me, tell me where, where were you born, Heather? I was born in Franklin Square, New York on Long Island. And it was very close to Christmas. And my mom was actually dressed as Mary, mother of God at a Christmas costume party when she was in labor. And my mom, who is a patron, thank you, mom.

She was really grumpy that night and just like, didn’t feel good and didn’t want to be around people. And so basically it’s your worst nightmare. Like you’re dressed like an idiot, no offense to mother Mary, but she probably didn’t feel that great at this point. And you know, it’s like a friend’s party.

It’s not even like their party so there’s just a lot of people you just don’t want to be around when you’re overdue. So she was like 41 weeks or something like that. And so at one point she looked at my Aunt Lynn and she said, I’m leaving. And Lynn was like, sorry, what? And she’s like, yeah, I’m outta here.

So she’s walking down the street dressed like Mary, laboring unbeknownst to her, pregnant. She’s 20 years old. So my mom was pretty young when she had me and she, she just sat on a curb, like blocks away from the party and just sat there for like a long time. And my Aunt Lynn came and sat next to her and she was like, so any chance you would like to actually leave and not just continue walking the streets of Long Island?

So she went home and the story goes that I believe she watched the movie, The Longest Yard with Burt Reynolds while laboring all night by herself because my dad was sleeping, which is probably smart. She was pissed at the time, but it was probably smart for him to sleep with a first baby in early labor so he could be there for her. I forget you’re the oldest. Oh yeah. I’m the oldest. So they had no clue what was going on.

So how many siblings do you have though? So I have four half-brothers. Okay. So I have, my mom and dad, I’m the only one of me. I’m like Tigger. I’m the only one of my kind. They split and then my mom got married and had two boys and my dad got married and had two boys and they’re all amazing.

I love them all. And we’re all close and it’s great. Yeah. So Burt Reynolds, which is actually, if you flash back to a few years prior, my mom had this little hot red Firebird with T tops. She was like the coolest with her neon, fake nails and her little bike shorts and stuff that she used to run around and back in the eighties.

And she saw Burt Reynolds’ car and his license plate said BANDIT. And she chased him down for like miles and miles and miles. And finally at a, at a red light, he stopped and waved at her. And so she feels like it was brought full circle that she got to watch The Longest Yard with Burt Reynolds while laboring with me.

But it was like a pretty classic story in the eighties. She went into the hospital probably too soon. They saw she was overdue. They slammed her with six-by-six Pitocin. She got an epidural. She stalled out. Everyone went to lunch and then while everyone was at lunch, but my mom, of course, because she’s in bed, my heart rate decels, and they took me back for an emergency C-section and saved the day.

And then she ended up having C-sections from that point on. And I really feel like they just screwed her over at the age of 20, because yeah. And then I was jaundice, so I didn’t feed that well, so I was that little asshole baby, and she remembers the nurse who’s like super Long Island who picked me up naked and she’s spanking me on the butt.

And she was like, come on, honey, wake up. She was like, come on, you got to go shopping someday with mommy’s credit card, you need to wake up but first, you got to eat. You got to get the bubby. So before you get daddy’s credit card, you got to have this boob. And my mom, that’s all she remembers really. And then I think she blacked out and here we are.

I’m not sure. Yeah, that was, that was my birth story. And then I slept pretty good. You know, they put me in the window, my jaundice resolved as it did in the eighties without crazy intervention like we do now. And it’s interesting they didn’t do a lot of like bili light treatment then. No, they didn’t. Oh and actually I am forgetting an important part of the story.

Two weeks after she brought me home, she was holding me up and she noticed one of my legs was longer than the other one. She was like, Hmm, that’s weird. So she brought me in and they were like, ma’am she doesn’t have a complete hip. And she was like, sorry, what? I’m like, right. Did you not notice this? Yeah. So I actually was born like the head of my femur wasn’t completely formed and neither was the socket. So my leg was just kind of dangling, low key dangling off my body. So much like Forrest Gump. I had to wear a hip brace until I was two that kept my legs in a permanent split. And that was very character building. I think that’s, you know, part of what made me me. But they said I used to; I was such a champ.

I used to just crawl around and drag my little legs behind me. Oh my gosh. That’s crazy. I actually, I got very lucky at a certain point. When I was a toddler, I was extremely bow legged. And the first doctor my parents saw were like oh, time for leg braces. And they got a second opinion and the second doctor was like, well, up until this point, it’s been normal to put babies in leg braces for this, but we found out they’re actually not needed and they grow out of it.

Wow. You lucked out. How cute would it be if we both had baby pictures of us in leg braces? We were both born in New York also. We both ended up in West Virginia. That is actually kind of weird. It’s like kismet. Yeah. Or it’s really a meet cute, right? Isn’t that? It is. No, because one fateful August day I was born in the newer shell hospital in New York.

Oh. But my dad insisted on driving out there because like he knew the president of the hospital, which is so like my dad do that, like bypassing, probably 10 hospitals in between where we lived and that one. Yeah. Cause the president of the hospital has so much to do with just a regular baby being born. I think they did get like special treatment though.

You know, like my dad is that kind of person who’ll be like, so, and so is my friend. But what does that even mean to get special treatment at the hospital? I don’t know. See, I wish I had a cute birth story, but I don’t because my mother is a terrible storyteller. Hmm. And when I ask her about my birth, she’s like, well, I was 34 and I don’t know, your labor was a couple of hours and it was fine.

What? And you’re like, seriously? And then you’re like, are you a bad-ass or are you actually just repressing a lot of memories? You know, with my mom, it’s like, there’s a fine line, I think. And like, I think also she just, I mean, I don’t know. Hopefully you don’t listen mother, but you know, we, we, haven’t always gotten along and we’re very different people in a lot of ways.

And I question whether or not she actually wanted children. And my mother returned to work at two weeks postpartum. My sister and I were formula fed from day one. And my father did a significant amount of the work with us as babies. You know, I would love to have a whole episode where we kind of normalize that a little bit, because although it sucks to be the child of someone that didn’t want children, I do understand that some people don’t necessarily want children, but they do want grown adult children someday to be a part of a family. I don’t really know. It’s like, it’s a really hard thing to ask my mom about because she has a lot of trouble being emotionally honest, like maybe with herself too.

Well, you know, my grandmother was very, we could talk about my grandma, the whole episode too, but when they moved in with my parents towards the end of their life, because they were ill and my mom is an only child and they had a very interesting setup, my grandma and grandpa. And for example, it was kind of a marriage of convenience.

My grandmother was older. She was almost 40 when they got married and my grandpa, strong speculation that he was actually homosexual and they kind of just needed to take care of each other financially. And he was an ad man in New York city and he needed a cover and he wanted kids and she really didn’t.

And she told my mom that when they moved in, she said, you know, I never really wanted children, but your grandfather and I discussed it and we agreed on one. I told him I would give him one. That’s a hard thing to hear as the unwanted child. And my mom was just like, thanks. But also it’s not like she was saying, I didn’t want you.

It’s just like, I didn’t want children, but now that you’re here, like, obviously I love you. Yeah. It’s but for sure, I don’t know. I just kind of, not that I don’t wish to exist. But I wish like my mother had lived in a culture where it was okay for her to say, I don’t want kids. Yeah. You know, like that was not okay in the eighties.

You know, it was, it was harder to, to do back then. It’s hard now, right? Like how many of our contemporaries are literally asked when they’re having kids every single day, because they’re in their thirties and their clock is running out. Yeah. It’s, I would say it’s still hard now. I’m yeah. It’s the small messaging that you get your whole life too.

Yeah, absolutely. I don’t know, but it’s, I, I do kind of feel like I’m missing out on some kind of narrative of my own like early childhood. Cause if I don’t remember it, it’s hard to pick apart what happened. Unless it’s like a funny story my dad knows. Yeah. Also like the way our brains work as human beings is where our brains are always trying to make sense of what we’re seeing and what we’re looking at.

And we, we fill in the blanks and create a story. And so you’d use the pieces that you have and you fill in the rest and it becomes your reality, whether it really was or not. So it would be kind of cool to have that conversation with your mom someday. I mean, I’m always a proponent of like awkward conversations.

Like let’s just do it. I have a really hard time starting them, especially with her. She’s actually probably the, the person in the world who I have the hardest time talking to. Well you have a long time to figure it out. Yeah, but it’s something though that now on my kids’ birthdays, I tell them their birth story.

It’s like part of like, I wake them up in the morning, you know, at least for Griffin, I will do this with Lyra, but I’m like, good morning, happy birthday. Like this time, you know, six years ago, I was just holding you in my arms. Cause my son was born at like seven in the morning, you know? So like I was holding you in my arms for the first time.

And then I tell him his whole birth story and he rolls his eyes at me. But you know, it’s, it’s an important part of his history that I want him to have. Do you color it though, too? Like, do you, cause it’s not all sunshine and roses. Oh, well, yeah. Like I’ve told him different parts of it every year, you know?

So when he was like two, the version I told him was different from the version I tell him now and also different because of the questions he asks me. Hm. Like, I kind of have the same basic narrative and it’s not like it’s all rose colored. Like I acknowledged that it was hard work and you know, it, it wasn’t, you know, it was painful and all of that happened.

But like now he’ll be like, mom, why did it hurt? Or like, how did it hurt or did you enjoy it? Do you want to do it again? Like he has those questions now. You’re like, well, mommy had to battle with her inner demons and travel to the inside of the birth labyrinth, slay the dragon that lives within me that is my childhood trauma so I could morph into the mother I’m supposed to be in the fourth dimension. Yeah. I mean, haven’t quite gotten there yet, but anatomically, I think he understands why now. Got it. Okay. Well, you know, I think that that’s a good thing. I think that’s a good thing. And I, I do see a little bit of your mom’s like nonchalance in you.

And so many things, you’re just like, what’s the big deal? I’m like, I wouldn’t say I’m chicken little by any stretch of the imagination, but if there is something to be stressed about and I bring it to Maureen, she’s like, oh, it’ll be fine. You know, like what? We’re going to make it. We just stress out about totally opposite things.

And it’s very helpful to have a podcast with you because of that. Well, true. I would say that is absolutely true. And your mom clearly does not stress out about physiology or birth or even childbearing. No, but like the kitchen being untidy was like panic attack inducing. You know, that’s interesting stuff. Well, and all of that does make us who we are in little, little bits, you know, it’s and it’s interesting cause that’s the stuff that’s the hardest to unlearn.

I think, you know, you’re just, you’re, you’re small lived experience. I’m working on it every day. It’s very interesting.

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So after you were born, what, like at what point do people start talking about little Maureen in your family? Or when do your memories kick in? You know what I mean? Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. So we moved when I was five. So I actually can tell what memories I have from before then, because they’re in a different house and it’s not a lot.

I feel like I have really pretty large gaps in my early childhood memory. Did you have a little New York accent as a child? Yeah. Yeah, I think me and my sister both did. My sister has more of it still because she never left. Got out of town at 17 and never looked back. Well, we have some family VHS tapes of me on Easter morning as like a three-year-old or maybe younger.

Oh gosh. VHS’s are the best. We have a ton of my God. My mom’s hair was so on point. It was like huge Farrah Fawcett, black curly hair. Just giant. I loved it. And then I’m like running around with my little Easter basket and I go, “ma where are all the eggs?” I don’t, I didn’t have a long island accent is the thing.

Yeah, I did. I sounded like an absolute Long Islander. I grew up in the burbs. No. Yes. We were different. We were different. Well, so, oh, I recall from my childhood that I was obsessed with birth from a very young age. So I don’t know if you can recall the kitty surprise. I had the kitty surprise toys. Yes. They are so creepy looking with their hard faces.

If you guys don’t know what that is, we will put a link in the show notes. If you’re not a nineties baby and you didn’t have the toys where you could basically have a C-section with your cat every day. Yeah, so for sure. And you didn’t know how many kitties there were, so you’d buy the cat at wherever, Walmart, the pregnant cat, even a thing, rip its Velcro belly open.

Yeah. And you get to see how many are inside. And of course, mine only had two. I think, I think my kitty surprise had like six in it. Well, no, it didn’t. Because three was the max. Because you can buy refills. Oh, maybe that was why we had so many. Maybe we each had one and I took all the babies. About that detail maybe, but I definitely asked my parents to get more kitties and I have this distinct memory of sitting in my basement toy room and jamming kitties into this poor cat.

I mean too many kitties. It just would not fit. And I just birthed them obsessively over and over again. And they were like, is she weird or is she brilliant? We’re not sure. We’re going to find out. I did not, did not have any fascination with birth or breastfeeding as a child. Well beyond that, remember, A Birth Story? No.

Should I remember A Birth Story? Okay. Well, first of all, backing up all the movies where anything was born, like Milo and Otis remember, when, when they had the babies or Black Beauty where Black Beauty is born, I was just absolutely enthralled with birth from those movies. And then when A Birth Story came out, which is just hysterical to look at now, because it’s like, how did they make it so dramatic?

You know? Cause it’s the same every time. It’s not like they were doing home birth. It was like the hospital and stuff. And I used to watch it as soon as I got home from school every single day. I’ve never seen this. You’ve never seen A Birth Story? No I didn’t. So I was watching Animal Planet every day, all day, playing with animal toys and a hundred percent had planned to be a veterinarian.

Well, what happened? Life. Life happened. A lot happened. I really lost interest in doing that, like in high school. Why? Well, I, so my co interests as a child were art and animals and I don’t know the animal interests, not that it wasn’t there, but it kinda got channeled more into like hiking and camping and adventuring and less into science and career, you know?

So I like went to summer camp and like did all that stuff and sleep away camps. And I canoed and I hiked and I rode horses and shot a bow and arrow. And like all of that. And then like art and like visual art took over my like career path and you know. Can you define visual art for me is this like in the movie, She’s All That where they do their visual art and he goes, hacky sack just uses a hacky?

No, no, no. I just mean like as opposed to performance and like singing and theater, which I did also, but that wasn’t like my main focus. It was like painting and sculpture and stuff like. Got it. Yeah. Well then how does a person who is just a, cause we’ve actually never talked about this before, so I’m very curious to know. How does a person who’s like horseback riding and shooting bow and arrows, and like really genuinely uninterested in humans it sounds like, you know, other than from the artistic point of view?

You somehow managed to get in there and become part of the story. Cause that’s what it is with midwifery. You know, you’re not just like on the outside, you’re in it. Like you could not be more in it. So how did you make that transition from observer to participant in that kind of situation? Yeah, I think I struggled a lot more with human connection, like under age 16 or like under age 18. Like that, you know, I struggled a lot more to understand people, to make friends like, to, you know, like I just didn’t have that much of an interest in being a part of something like that.

And definitely always imagined career and life and everything being pretty solo. And I think that once I left the nest and like left my small town where people were super close minded and frankly, like not very welcoming of divergent pathways, you know? Cause I was like in, I went to an all-girls Catholic school.

I was like the only queer kid who wanted to be an artist. And like, you know, I kind of felt like I was the only one who cared about anything that was not what we’re wearing today and who we’re dating and what’s on TV. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But you were also the valedictorian. Not quite, but almost. Very, very close to that.

Well, I didn’t find school difficult, you know, it’s like, I didn’t find it academically difficult, so I just procrastinated and then I would do the work for the next period during the period before it and hand it in. So it didn’t take up that much of my life. But it just like, it really took leaving that environment to actually see how I could connect to other humans.

Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. But I kind of argue that even though you’re a midwife who’s like in it with somebody, I’m not, you’re not. Because there’s still, like, you’re not like, you’re not part of the family. So like you’re connecting, but then you, you have the baby and you detach, and you say bye. And then you go into the next one.

So it’s, is this kind of like, is midwifery kind of your bridge between human connection and still being solo? Is that how you found it? I don’t know. Well, so, okay. Let me take you on a journey. So I went to Oberlin College where I realized that like, not all humans suck because this was a very like self-selecting college of weirdos.

And I was like, oh my gosh, everybody’s like me here. And it was really a time of exploration. Like socially, relationship-wise, emotionally, like, I kinda figured out how to stretch my wings. You know what I mean? Did you do drugs? Sure. That’s not what I was getting at there, but also yes, that was there too.

Anyone’s like exploration and their eyes are as big as yours just were I’m like, how much molly did you do? No, not, not well anyway. We don’t have to; we don’t have to quite go into that much detail. But mostly I just mean like, I, I think I finally found humans who I liked. Oh, that’s really important.

Yeah. That’s a huge piece of it. And I had a couple of those in high school, but like not very many. And they were like also just the other people who like didn’t have other people they liked anyway. But I, I found like a lot of people that I liked and could relate to, and just like wanted to be a part of community there.

And I lived and I ate in these cooperative housing units. So it was like a very deep dive into what it means to have community. And when I left Oberlin College, I went to work in an environmental organization in West Virginia, because I’ve always been somebody who had like really, really, I care deeply about stuff, right?

Like passionate about lots of activism topics. And that was the one that I was pretty hyper-focused on then was like environmental work, stopping humans from totally fucking up our planet and poisoning ourselves. And just so I went down to work with Coal River Mountain which was an organization that was working to stop a certain type of coal mining that’s really, really destructive and really harmful.

And so I went from this one cooperative living situation in college, basically to another cooperative living and working situation because they provided housing for interns who got paid nothing. And that’s when I really also like took a deep interest dive into like expeditionary hiking because I like West Virginia.

There’s so much to do outside here and so much to explore. And part of my work there was like going out to these sites and seeing what was going on. And so that was really incorporated into my life. And with that I had to learn some basic medical skills because we were like really far out, away from help, if something happened doing kind of dangerous stuff with our hikes and took a really deep interest into that. And then that’s where I like eventually got to midwifery.

Yeah. I feel like that’s still a big leap though. It is, it is. I mean, and it was a journey from learning like wilderness, first responders skills, to learning more herbal medicine and studying with local folks and then online with Herbal Medics Academy, which they have this like very, it’s kind of like a more regimented, like clinical herbalist thing, but a lot of verbal schools that are kind of wishy-washy don’t have, like, this school was started by a Green Beret medic.

So it’s the, like the way that everything was talked about was really different and much more like practical medicine and how we actually help people using plants, which I really liked. And did some clinical work with them down there. We like brought the teachers from the school down to do free medical clinics, which was pretty awesome.

But when I was working with that school, then there’s like a family medicine kind of pathway they offer. And I had taken some class like a pediatric class with them and the teacher was like, Hey, I think you would make a great doula. Like, why don’t you take my doula course? And I was like, okay.

You had a sensei that guided you along. Right. Katie LeMone, wonderful midwife. And it was right after I’d had my son and I had moved away from the coal river valley. We were, we had just bought our house, built our house and we’re living in Randolph county. And I was like, okay, sure. Yeah. Like, you know, obviously I had some interest in having babies cause I had just had one, but then I sort of, you know, took that class with her and began working as a doula and was breastfeeding at the time.

As a requirement for that class, I had to do some kind of breastfeeding education. So I went and took my first CLC course and like, that’s how I then eventually got to midwifery. Right. Because I feel like a lot of people, once they become a doula, they’re like, wait a second. I can’t, I just can’t stand by and watch people get abused constantly.

Right. And also welcome to your new passionate thing to care about where you see injustice. Yeah, exactly. It’s and that’s where, that that’s the attraction for me. Right? This is an area where people are treated terribly and unjustly every day. And this is something I can do to change that. Or so you thought. Well, I mean, in small ways, right?

And you know, in a larger perspective too, like changing the way that people are born and are fed and are cared for in the first few years of life has a really big impact on their whole life trajectory and their health. And you know what I’ve found is a lot of the people that we have worked with directly for their second child, who’ve seen the difference it can make end up wanting to go into the birth working space to help other people. So there is a bit of like a pay it forward thing, which I think actually comes from like 10,000 years of women doing this anyway. Yeah. Like there’s a midwife in all of us, I think.

And really when people have an experience like that, so many times I see them become so empowered and whether they’re getting paid for it or not, they’re becoming mouthpieces for the cause with their friends, with their sisters, especially. Oh my gosh, the sisters that they’re like, oh hell no girl, I’ve done this before, but this is what we’re not tolerating.

We’re not doing that. Yeah. Well, I have a question for you. So you were obsessed with birth as a child. Did you actually retain that interest? Like all the way up until it was time to choose? Like what after high school? Oh yeah, actually I was, I don’t know if you can tell, but I’m a bit like a dog with the rabbit.

You know, the dog, what is that called? The Greyhound? Yeah, I’m like a Greyhound and the rabbit is just there and I’ll just go around and around and around until you literally derail me. And so the universe threw some very heavy things at me to derail me from my path to become an OB GYN, which was the original plan, because I didn’t actually know what a midwife was. Because big shocker, they were never featured in A Birth Story that I remember.

And, you know, I just so badly wanted to be an OB GYN. I just, I don’t know. I can just imagine it though. Heather, the OB GYN. Yeah. Yeah, sure. So in high school and home-ec where you have to make a pillow and then you paint your career of choice on the pillow. You know, talk about imprinting, but mine was an OB GYN and I drew a little picture of a baby in a scale, and the baby was peeing directly into the nurse’s eye and when I’m really looking at that.

And I don’t know, but like what I’m really looking at that picture, it’s not an OB GYN. It doesn’t look like an OB GYN. Baby would probably never be in the eye of an OB GYN unless they were doing a circumcision. It’s basically me as a midwife standing there, like doing all the midwives stuff that I would do.

So I find that very funny. And then I also just have this like sick desire to achieve like the, I don’t do things halfway. I’m like, oh no, I’m going to do them a hundred percent, all the way to the top. Like, what is the top of this place? The president? I will then become the president. I just, I don’t know. I’m exploring all of these things in myself and cause mostly cause I’m getting tired.

I’m like, do I do, can I maintain this pace my whole life? Do I have to be the president? Is that even something I want? You know, so these are questions I’m now exploring, but at the time I so badly wanted to go to an Ivy league school because I had put in the work. I had at 4.0 GPA. I was, I had more volunteer hours than any other human being in my high school.

I had so much of that. Fuck. It was crazy. I mean, I look back and I don’t know how I did it other than my parents making me food every night and supporting me. That, oh yeah, this is how you, how you did it. Every other aspect of your life was taking care of. Completely, completely. I mean, I didn’t date. Not really.

I just was so focused on being all I could be. My God. And so I, but people forgot to tell me that even if you are the best on paper, if you are a middle-class white girl from Morgantown, West Virginia, the chances of you actually getting into an Ivy league school at that time, unless you were a legend were slim to none and slim just walked out the door.

It’s man, like the high school I went to was super focused on getting people into Ivy leagues and it was, it was tough. It was tough. I knew where I wanted to go to school. My guidance counselor was like, what if you also applied to Yale and Princeton and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, sure, but why?

Because I know where I want to go. And those are not safety schools. Right? What is wrong with you? Well, like on the flip side, I guess if I, so West Virginia is not known for their education, right. We’re not really high up there on the list. If we had been in New York, like the Long Island schools, they’re always in the top 100 high schools.

So we’re not necessarily a feeder school to anything. Now, in retrospect, I just, I did not realize where I actually stood in the scheme of things in the United States, you know, cause I was just so small. My world was pretty small. Well the system is rigged. It’s not, there’s nothing. It’s not your fault.

You know, I went to one of those prep schools in New York where you were expected to get in. Like they expected a certain amount of the class to go Ivy league and the actual valedictorian, right? One of my best friends got into a bunch of very, very top tier schools, but she chose to go to UVA because they gave her a full ride and that was like disappointing for my high school.

UVA did not give me an acceptance letter. Just FYI. Yeah. I ended up applying early decision to Oberlin and then I withdrew like the rest of my applications, because my guidance counselor was like, look, they’re only going to accept one white girl from this high school.

And if it’s you, it’s not your friends. And you’re like, yeah, but I’m queer. Does that not count for anything? And she’s like, not in 2004, it doesn’t or whatever, 2008. That was 07. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what ended up happening was I did get into Boston University, which is exciting. It was a pretty good one. Had I ever been to Boston before?

No, literally never. Did not even visit the school. I had applied to like 11 different colleges and I got into BU and I was like, oh, this is great. Like, oh my God. It was $42,000 a year and my parents were like; I don’t think we’re going to do that. I was like, what? You said I could go wherever I want.

Like, I can’t. My parents. I mean, they now granted they had a lot of money. They would have figured it out, but I really wish we had had that conversation. Like I wish they, when we were applying to schools, they were like, Hey, there’s a cost to this and we need to talk about like, what, where you want to go but also like what’s practical.

Right? I, I mean, to be honest, we might’ve had that conversation. We probably did, but I don’t think I actually had ears to hear, because I was like it won’t matter. I’m going to be a doctor someday. Right? You’re going to be a doctor with $500,000 of student debt. Right, right. It was like the ultimate, I don’t know.

I don’t even know what the word is for it. Delusion? Yeah. You can say delusion is accurate. It was. I’m pretty I just didn’t have enough information in context to make a good choice. But anyway, did I let it derail me? No, I did not. The universe was trying to say, Heather don’t do that, but I was like, you know what, fuck you universe watch this.

And I was like, what’s the problem? Money? Okay. I’ll get money. So I did ROTC and I actually went through the whole thing and got the ROTC scholarship. And I signed the papers. They gave me a pen and you know, that was cool. And the, the fancy recruiter guy was like you know, so on point and promised me the world and promised me they’d send me to med school and pay for it.

And I was like, oh my God, I drank all the Kool-Aid. And they made me make a list of all the colleges that I was gonna apply to that had Navy ROTC programs. Boston was number one. I got in. So they were like, you’re good. And then a couple of weeks before it started, I got a call that said, actually Boston’s program is full.

We are sending you to your fifth choice, South Carolina. And I was like, what? And so this girl ended up at a state school in the south, in the military. When I tell you that I showed up my first day wearing Keds and a big doe eye look on my face, like an absolute moron. They were so confused. They were like, is your dad in the military?

I said, no. And they were like, are you a lesbian? I was like, no. They’re like, we don’t understand you. You’re not fitting the brand. And I was like, you’re telling me. I just needed money. It was why I’m here. I was like, what? So my heart was actually broken. So I went into college just like completely, already not okay. And then there was a lot of partying with the military people. Oh, my first semester GPA was 3.3. I was floundering.

You know what though? College is when I decided that I did not care about, or I should not care about other people’s expectations for my achievement. And that was like the beginning of my transition away from being like an obsessive overachiever.

I’m still in it. I’m still trying, but because I realized most of that was fueled by my parents and community. I did not get the memo at all. So it was bad. I also just like went to a school of like just the free spirits. True. I probably would’ve done very well there actually. And what ended up happening to me was they said, you know, they had promised me they’d pay for med school and all this stuff.

And then I found out that they actually only give 20 of those away a year for school and five people in just my unit were applying. Holy cow. And so I was like, oh my God. And so they started pushing me towards nursing. Cause they, you know, that’s how the military is. They’re like, we actually really think you’d be great at nursing.

And I dug my heels in and I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I was also failing, not failing, but failing for my standards for med school. For sure. I had already fucked up. Like I already got a 3.3. So like there was no chance I was going to get it. If it’s that competitive, like I had already screwed myself. So I did end up switching into the nursing program in South Carolina and I just felt so bad about myself.

I was like, I hate this, this isn’t what I want to do. It was a very big downhill spiral from there. And I, we could talk about that forever, but I won’t, but to make a long story short, when I started, when I moved back to West Virginia, I transferred back here. I lost 15 credits and I missed the deadline to actually enroll in nursing school here.

I would have had to wait an entire year to get more pre-recs and then apply. So I ended up graduating with a multi-disciplinary studies degree. Sure. Three minors. It’s three minors equals one major. Business, history, and Native American studies. That’s what I graduated with my first bachelor’s like, what in the Jesus heck?

Like you just, I think though the thing is like now as like someone in their thirties, I look at that and I’m like, good job. Right. You know, at the time you’re just like, what am I doing with my life? This is not what I was supposed to be doing. Like, oh, you gotta hustle that system. Right, exactly. So I ended up going back and getting a fast-track nursing program because I had also dug in more and met more midwives. And I had started to realize that maybe the system isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be. I watched the Ricki Lake documentary, The Business of Being Born and I was enraged. And so I then found Ida Mae Gaskins because of that documentary. I started reading all of her books, like Spiritual Midwifery.

And I was like, oh my God. And then I got pregnant with Theo and I had planned to have an orgasmic birth. That did not happen. I had a scheduled C-section and then, you know, it was just train wreck after train wreck. And yeah, I actually might be the only person in the history of WVU fast track program to get married.

Well, excuse me, get pregnant, get married and get divorced in the same 18-month fast track program. And graduate with a 3.5. And that was easily, the worst time of my life, the worst time of my whole entire life. So I’m very proud of that 3.5, because I think most people would have just quit.

Yeah, absolutely. I just, I think I can do anything now because of that. So I do tell my nursing students that, and I’m just like, listen, you can do it. And I know you can do it because I did it. So I don’t want to hear any of your complaining. Yeah, but yeah, that’s kinda how it happened. And just from that point on, once you become part of the community and once your eyes are open to certain things, you can’t unsee them, you just can’t unsee them.

And then you just end up going deeper and deeper into, into the truth, really about what women are capable of, what our bodies are capable of. The magic that we all have. I was so sick of people taking other human beings’ power from them. And that’s what it was it for me too like that, you know, that’s the heart of it.

I think for most midwives in, in something that really draws then people from a lot of different backgrounds, right? It’s people who care, it’s activists, it’s people who are passionate and it’s people who can’t stand injustice. Yeah, right. And then especially once you’ve lived some of it and it’s been you and you feel like everything is objectively fine, but you still feel dirty for some reason.

And you like explore that you go down that rabbit hole and you realize it’s because you gave your power away at some point. And you’re resentful of yourself almost. Of course, because we self-blame when really it’s like, wait a minute, this wasn’t me. This was the system that did this. And like who’s running this place?

And then you’re like, wait, could I run this place? Yeah. And I, and you know, like my births were both home births and, you know, there was no injustice there, but I think what really got me with Griffin’s birth, you know, I worked really hard for that. For every single bit of it. And, you know, I was absolutely spent every single moment of that whole pregnancy doing the right things and reading the right books and eating the right things and doing the right exercises. And, you know, just worked my ass off and then still had a birth that I felt like wrecked me and it to nobody’s fault, you know, but I think what I left that experience feeling was like, I had the quote perfect birth and it was still hard as shit.

And I had all the support from my midwife and her assistant and my husband and I had the right resources and I had the right birth setting and everything was perfect. And I still felt like that was one of the more traumatic experiences in my life. Yeah, it’s, it’s weird because that’s why, when I, when you were talking about telling Griffin his birth story, I’m like how much? I feel like I rediscover things all the time when I am brave enough to go back to that time.

I mean, to be honest with you, you know, I did have a midwife with Theo’s birth and she, through my whole pregnancy saved me. I mean, my marriage was in shambles. My first marriage, it was horrible. Okay. I can’t say too much, but it was horrible. And the amount of stress that I had to endure during that pregnancy was scary.

It was scary on a medical level. Yeah. And she really did a great job of wrangling me and keeping tabs on me. And she actually came to my scheduled C-section and she came to the OR to take pictures for me. And if it wasn’t for her and if it wasn’t for those pictures, I swear to God, I would have been so disassociated that I would have not even thought it was me and my story.

Yeah. Like if I couldn’t visualize myself kissing my son when he came out, I probably would’ve blacked it out. So you know what I’m saying? And I think that happens to some people when they have general anesthesia with C-sections, where they have a hard time just like, even understanding that it had happened. Even if it, you know, even aside from that, just the, if it’s a traumatic situation, our brains protect us.

Right, they’re like what if we forgot that? So, you know, we don’t have to deal with it. Right. I mean, and I think anyone that, I think a lot of people listening are gonna relate to a traumatic birth story and you don’t have to go become a midwife or a lactation consultant to change the system, but you can know that you’re not alone and that also you can get better from it. And yeah, I’m still working on it.

And I think like what probably the most common response is not to go to midwifery. But to become like an advocate in your community with your friends. You know, being like, oh my gosh, this happened to me. Like you should hire a doula or don’t go to that OB or, you know yeah, like I’m going to come bring you meals the first week you’re home because like I fell apart during that time.

Like and that is super important and valuable. Yeah. And also partner dynamics. So this one kind of gets me because how much is it partner entitled to be a part of your birth experience if they are not helping you? I have so many thoughts and feelings about this from clients that I’ve helped.

Yeah. It’s a really awkward situation to be in as the midwife when you’re like, I see clear, huge, like only red flags here. I only see red flags and I would like you to leave, but this is your house. Right. Kindly leave and they’re like, I live here and you’re like, oh, I know. I still don’t want you here.

You’re ruining everything. Oh gosh. I don’t know. I’m a firm believer that the, the person who has the ultimate say so for their birth is the one birthing. Like I’ve watched so many men, just men, not other partners, just to be clear, like consent for things for their birthing partner, which gives me the big ick.

No, that the, it’s bad. I’ve watched men ask obstetricians to give their wives a cervical check. Wait, what? All kinds of stuff. So I’m, you know what, frankly, like I have strong opinions about, yeah. I don’t know. I just, the more I get into midwifery and lactation, the more I’m like, we all need to go back to living in communities of women and doing all the women’s stuff together because there’s just less variables to deal with.

Yeah. Or just like, I don’t know. You know, there was a long time I felt like, like every partner needed to be a hundred percent in for the birth. And now I’m like, you know what? If that doesn’t work for you, I’m not going to argue. You don’t necessarily need your partner there if you know, they’re not going to be supportive.

It may not be their space. Right. Whether they are a man or a woman or whomever. Well, that is not everybody’s space. When I look back, I’m like, the power will be given to my patients, not taken. All of it. All the time, you know? And so that’s why I’m like real clear on what are your goals, you know, like, so, and I think actually when you look at midwives and you look at lactation consultants and you look at nurses in general, a lot of us have trauma.

A lot of us have parents who are addicts. A lot of us are recovering from something, because you are able to sit with somebody in their fire and not get burned. You know, you just you’re able to tolerate it. And that’s not something that everyone can do. So if you are that person and you feel so compelled and you’re like, oh, I see that Heather and Maureen’s journey is not a straight line.

And you’re wondering how you can get from A to B right now cause you’re like, oh, maybe I don’t have a college degree. Or maybe I don’t have a supportive partner. I could never be a midwife because I only had C-sections for example, right. No, a hundred percent. You can be whatever you want to be. You can get wherever you want to get. Never in a straight line because it never is. I just always want to, like, I wish when I was 17, somebody had told me that there was no rush.

You know, I, I wish also, like I had asked my parents if I could take a gap year and they were like, absolutely not. I wish somebody had just said yes, like, go get some stupid menial job, rent an apartment, like learn how to do your taxes. Right. And think about what you want to do and where you want to go from here.

And honestly, like part of me is like, what if I had just gone straight from there to meeting my husband, to having my kids and then they were already older now and then I started school now? Exactly. Like, I feel like I would be much better at it. Exactly. And more focused. So like don’t, I don’t know. You know, and, and like, I still have plans to go back and continue my education.

I feel like I want to continue my education my whole life. Same, you know? And, and so there’s no reason you can’t do that. Yeah, absolutely. You know, this whole episode is a journey of how we got here. And of course, those are some of the highlights, not all of them. Much more. And like the journey is not over.

I mean, first of all, do you think we started this podcast knowing where we were going with it? Like, no. We were like, we’re in a pandemic and people are getting discharged from the hospital before they learned to breastfeed. What can we do to help? Right. And so, you know, also by the way, we forgot that we did talk about how we met in a previous episode, but we met at a conference and I was pregnant at the time.

And two months later I had my baby and I got a call from Maureen who said, Hey, I’m doing a home birth today. Do you want to come? And I said, sorry, what? I just had a baby eight days ago. And she was like so what? To my defense, you said you would be okay being on call for that birth. And I was like, okay, sure, whatever.

Yep. Well, of course I did. I’m the Greyhound. Yes. I now knowing you, I would have said, no, you need to rest. I went and we had a great time and it was wonderful. It was wonderful. It was such a, Heidi came, of course. My vagina was so busted. My boobs were leaking into this birth pool I’m pretty sure. I couldn’t tell what was mine and what was the water.

And I don’t know, but this lady had her birth pool in her quaint little single-wide trailer in the kitchen, which was amazing and very cozy actually. It was a beautiful birth. Somebody actually asked me the other day, have you ever done a home birth in a kitchen? Like where do people normally deliver? And I was like, well, usually behind the toilet, but it’s usually in some stupid corner I can’t fit my ass in.

But the pool is set up so nicely the kitchen, it was really quaint. You all kindly let me do the catching. And I caught this baby and I’m pretty sure my vagina hurt worse than hers did by the end of this because she didn’t tear and I was like busting stitches all over the place.

And the, the cutest part was when the older sibling came out and thought that Heidi was the baby, but the baby hadn’t been born yet. That was very funny. That was wild. She was so confused. That was so funny. But I think that’s when I really Maureen’s cool factor for me went so far up at that moment because first of all, I was like, holy shit.

They trust me to do this. And I appreciate anyone looking at me like I was qualified to do anything. Cause you have such imposter syndrome when you first graduate. And it’s like, oh my God. But like I had delivered 42 babies, but none of them in a pool in the kitchen. So thank you for that. And she’s so relaxed, like Maureen at a birth is just like, all right, here’s what we’re going to do.

Are you cool with that? All right. And I’m over here, like just buzzing from the inside, like, oh my God. And so that was the start of a very chill, cool, healthy friendship between Maureen and I. And always every time we talked was like coming from a place of help. How can I help? Can I help your patient? Can I help your patient?

How’s it going with you? Is everything okay? Pandemic hits, you know, and this is basically how it happened. Just naturally. And we both realized that we were Alanis Morrissette fans and full of righteous indignation. And here we are, and we have no plan for the podcast. You know, podcasting is pretty new in this space of media. Turns out we’re still novices at podcasting also. If she can ever get her ass here to record in person in this new studio set up, we’ll see if this is the final setup and God, I hope it is because I’m so tired of trying to figure it out.

But also the journey has been really cool. Like who has a studio? We do. So that’s really neat and we’re not done yet. I mean, we are just going to let you all be our guide because you’ve been serving us very well in that capacity so far. You tell us what you need. We will do our best to get it for you, if not with us, with somebody else.

And that’s how we make these big changes in the system when people rise up and they’re like, actually, this is what we’re demanding. And then we have these two microphones here and we can tell people what you want. Yeah. And where it goes from there we don’t know. Well, I thought I’d let you know, Heather, that a person whose birth you were at with me, her third baby was born the same day as Lyra.

Oh, it’s very nice. That’s very nice. We’re still good friends. That is very nice. Well, I would like to just close by saying wherever you are in your journey, eventually, someday there is a gift in it somewhere. Because all of these crazy life experiences and my very choppy back and forth road to where I am today, I use all of those experiences all the time. I mean, my God, even my minor in Native American studies and history comes up because it’s allowed me to look at history through a different lens. And the history of nipple shields, the history of like how we got here, you know, and if we know where we came from, we have a better idea of where we’re going.

So all these experiences that you’ve had in your life will never be wasted. And we are here for all of it. And this journey that you’re on with your tiny baby right now, if they are tiny, it will be so fast and it is just a blink. And we’re just trying to make this small little blip in your life feel better and feel easier and really just set a stronger foundation for your next jumping off point so you feel empowered to do whatever your next step in your journey is.

And despite the fact that Heather and I coincidentally started our journeys in the same places and are at the same place now, I was trying to tell everybody in this episode that you can come at it from many different ways and many different places, you don’t have to be born in New York.

Yes. But it helps apparently. Apparently it helps. And you know, you’ll get there eventually. We’re all still getting there eventually. Yes. And if you have, here’s what I’m going to do. I want to link a couple of things in the show notes for you, because we get questions all the time about how we came to be where we are.

So we’re going to link the three pathways to become an IBCLC. We are going to link information about becoming a CLC, which there’s a lot of different ways to get that. And the pandemic has changed that a little bit as well. And then also, what else do you want to link? Oh, your herbalist thing. So if anyone’s interested in becoming an herbalist, Maureen will link her herbalism course that she did. Just look at the show notes, everybody, it will be rife with resources.

Rife with resources, including the definition of rife, but, you know, I somehow imagined we would have more time to talk about more things. So maybe we’ll have to do a part two sometime. Yeah. Part two, where we fill in the nitty gritty. But anyway, I hope this was enjoyable for everybody. And, you know, hit us up with questions and comments and tell us your story.

Yeah. Tell us how you got to be where you are, because for example, we’ve had amazing messages from listeners like the pharmacist from Australia, still one of my favorite emails I’ve ever received. I would love to know how you become a pharmacist in Australia who cares enough to listen to a breastfeeding podcast.

Like how does that happen? How do you become a person that is interested in listening to the Milk Minute Podcast? Yeah. Please let us know. Email us, comment on our social media, became a patron and we’ll just like chat one-on-one with you. You know, lots of pathways, so many pathways.

Do you know what I really need Heather? Hmm. So many things, but I’m guessing a drink of water. Yeah. But water gets a little boring. That’s true. It does. So I like to add just a little LiquidIV now, and then. Oh man. I love LiquidIV because it’s gluten free, soy free, dairy free, non-GMO, and made in the USA.

Yeah. And it’s a great tasting daily electrolyte drink mix that utilizes cool technology that delivers hydration to your bloodstream faster and more efficiently than just water. Plus, it just kind of makes you a little bit happy. And I add a little bit of fizz to mine. I don’t know about you, but I actually add a little bit of Perrier to mine and I make it a little fancy sometimes when I’m feeling it.

I like this and they don’t just have a hydration multiplier. They’ve got a sleep mix too, which I love. And one for energy, which does not make you shaky and wacky and weird like coffee does it just kind of gives you that extra edge that you need in your life. So if you’d like to order LiquidIV, you can use promo code MILKMINUTE for 25% off your order and free shipping that’s Liquid-IV.com and enter promo code MILKMINUTE for 25% off and free shipping.

So I’m going to pull the award for today. So our award in the alcove for today is one of our patrons, Emily Flora. She let us know that she has been breastfeeding her son for two months now, and it is a huge accomplishment for her. They overcame formula supplementation, oral restrictions, thrush, and postpartum surgery.

Emily, congratulations. It sounds like that was a lot of challenges to overcome. Emily, congratulations. You know, we love you girl, and I’m so proud of everything that you’ve done and all the challenges you’ve overcome. I’m going to give you; can I give you the Heroic Hump Award for getting over the hump like a hero? Yes, let’s do that. Or does that sound too dirty? I think we’re going to roll with it. I like that. The Heroic Hump.

I love it. Emily, I think you’ll think that’s funny. So we’re going to leave it. You get the Heroic Hump Award. Awesome. All right, everyone. Well, thank you for listening in on our journey to the Milk Minute and to each other. And we hope that your journey is going swimmingly. And if it is, or if it isn’t, we want to hear about it.

You can email us at MilkMinutePodcast@gmail.com or hit us up on the Instagram @Milk_Minute_Podcast for the same thing on Tik TOK. And if you too want to try and change this big, scary system, that’s not set up for lactating parents, you can tell a friend about the podcast. You can join us on Patreon. There are lots of ways to help out, so don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid. Let’s leave it with that. Don’t be afraid you people. Okay. Goodbye. Goodbye.

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