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Ep. 145- Crossover Episode: Night weaning- A consult with Laura from BFP

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*We apologize for any typos, misspellings or incorrect grammar. Our transcript is auto-generated by software that’s trying its best, just like all of us.*

Heather: Welcome back to the Milk Minute Podcast, everybody. Happy Friday. Happy Friday.

Maureen: Friday. I don’t know. I don’t re . I work on the weekends a lot. Heather .

Heather: It’s a fry boo.

Maureen: Oh, well, today I’m really excited to welcome back our BFF from the B F P, Laura Birek.

Heather: Yeah, Laura’s the bomb. She’s actually been on the podcast before to talk about tandem nursing and that’s great because there’s not a lot out there for people that are thinking about tandem nursing or end up tandem nursing when they weren’t planning to. So we will drop that episode in the show notes if you wanna check that out as well.

Maureen: Yes, absolutely. But first, let me just check in. How are you doing?

Heather: I have a little cold, so apologies for my nasal sounding voice today. We’re all just doing our best to get through this RSV, flu, covid season that has been completely relentless.

Maureen: It’s, it’s been like a real hazard for every, like I, I’ve, we have been like every three weeks, the entire household just knocked out with something.

Heather: Yep, a hundred percent. And it’s stuff that just lingers forever. So if you are going through that, we will also link our episode to the cold and flu medications that you can take while breastfeeding, because that question has been popping up weekly, maybe even daily in our Facebook group. So yes, we are here for you.

Maureen: Yes. And if you’re wondering like, wow, you guys sound different, that’s because we’re recording remotely because we don’t wanna get anybody else sick.

Heather: Yeah. So we’re all just doing our best.

Maureen: Heather, you can’t give me whatever your flu is.

Heather: Maureen doesn’t want my funk. I get it. It’s fine. So, yeah. And also my kids are okay. You know, they handle sickness usually way better than adults do.

Maureen: Well, they’re always fine.

Heather: Absolutely. Yeah. And they’re just funny, like having a nine year old boy is really funny. Like I’ve been trying to write down some of his daily quotes because they’re just so ridiculous. So this is, if you have a little boy right now who’s a baby, this is your future.

I share custody of my son with his dad. So like there’s a lot of his life that I just don’t actually know about because he’s got all these other family members that I don’t get to hang out with. And especially after the holidays, I’m like, what is even happening? What did you experience? I don’t know any of these people.

And that can be really kind of scary and frustrating for a parent until you hear things like this. Hey mom, did you know I have a great step, Cheryl ? And I’m like, no, I actually did not know that you had a great step. Aunt Cheryl. Tell me more about that. And he’s like, oh, she’s really cool. And he’s got like all these people in his life that I are just influencing him and I hope great step.

Aunt Cheryl is great and I’m sure she is. It’s just really, it’s like he was so excited about it. And he’s like, you should meet her. And I’m like, I probably won’t, but I’m excited for you , that you get to meet her. And then the other day he says he says where are you going today? And I was like, oh, I’m actually driving to Pennsylvania to go to Ikea.

Mm-hmm. And he goes, ah, Pennsylvania, William Penn. He was a Quaker. He was like a really nice guy. He was like, come on in. And did you know that he was actually not the oatmeal guy? I was like, first of all, thank you. How do you have all these William Penn, Pennsylvania oatmeal facts, like where I guess school is working.

So that’s good. It’s just funny to watch their brains develop.

Maureen: My son has been really entertaining lately as well. And if you didn’t know, there was a recent volcanic eruption in Hawaii, which like, you know, makes my son very excited. . I did not. And then we homeschool, so we just did vulcanology for a week in homeschool.

So he called his grandma, who he calls every single day. And since we have a landline, I do not care how long he talks to her. So he called her and he was trying to teach her the difference in like the kinds of volcanoes, but like, I don’t know if like our connection wasn’t really good or just like she couldn’t understand the words that were coming out of his mouth, but he was like, Grammy, it’s a shield volcano.

How do you not understand this? And he was so, he was so rough, frustrated, . And I was like, honey, like Grammy does not, I, I’m so glad you wanna share your passion with her. Grammy does not need to know, ignore, do I think she actually cares about the difference in volcanoes.

Heather: Also don’t, don’t scream, teach people.

You know, it’s, it’s hard to take in new information when it’s being yelled at you. So that’s a valuable lesson for life.

Maureen: Anyway, he was, he was really enthusiastic about that this week. And then, , I don’t know, at the end of you know, a day I was feeling really tired and stressed and he was like, hold on, mom, hold on.

And he goes to the couch and he puts all the cushions back, you know, and like, makes it like actually a nice place to sit and not just a place that like he and his sister have like WrestleMania on. And then he was like, look mom, I fixed the couch. Did that reduce your stress level?

And he’s like, there’s a nice place to sit now. . Thank you.

Heather: That’s funny. You know, so that’s kind of what we’re talking about in this episode today is like kids that are just constantly growing and changing. Mm-hmm. Reaching new developmental milestones. And of course you’re always a step behind your kid.

So, and we’re, half the time we’re in survival mode because of illness and we fall into new slash old patterns that maybe aren’t working for us because of that. And then your kid just keeps on developing and you just gotta hope that the foundation that you laid carries through. And you know, that’s kind of what we’re talking to Laura about today because her sleep with her son just kind of like got away from her.

Yeah. And now she’s in a situation that’s like not working for anybody really. So we are very excited to talk to her. But first we would like to thank some patrons today. We would like to thank Taylor R from Rankin Inlet Canada. That’s amazing. Thank you. We love our Canadians. Absolutely. Thank you. Really appreciate ya.

And she’s actually a dairy Queen, so she signed up for our top tier and I just sent her some merch and I had to figure out how to send it to Canada and type the address incorrectly. So every time look at me trying to be a knowledgeable American. And then also we would like to thank Tricia E from St. Helens, Oregon. And Tricia, thank you. She is also a Dairy Queen and you have some exclusive merch coming your way as well.

Maureen: Oh, wonderful. Thank you guys so much for joining our Patreon. And of course if you guys wanna be in the Cool Kids Club with them, you know where to find it. Check the show notes.

Heather: All right.

Well, we are going to take a quick little break and when we come back we’re going to answer a question and get into our consult with Laura.

You guys breastfeeding for busy moms? My little breastfeeding clinic isn’t so little anymore.

Maureen: I’m so excited that not only can people book with you in person here or virtually, but they can book with the other IBCLCs in your clinic.

Heather: We also do accept some insurance directly. A lot of insurance will actually pre-approve you for a certain amount of visits, even prenatally.

So please head on over to breastfeeding for busy and check out the services tab to see if your insurance is approved. Book with me or one of my IB CLCs, and we would love to work with. You can

Maureen: do prenatal consults. What else can they do, Heather?

Heather: Well, I often work with people who have supply issues.

We’ve got pumping, troubleshooting. We’ve got preparing to go back to work, weening starting solids. We really cover the entire journey. So if you’re struggling, stop struggling and just schedule with me or somebody on my team at breastfeeding for busy,

Maureen: dot com.

Welcome back everybody. Before we hop into things with Laura, I wanna take a question from our Patreon. Today’s question comes from Katie Siegfried and she asks, how much breast milk does a child need to get an adequate amount of antibodies to help fight off an illness? Is it just the more the merrier, asking for babies, but also for


Heather: Well, Katie, first of all, hi. Hello. Haven’t seen you in a while. We don’t have the exact data as far as volume, but we do know that the less milk you make overall, The more concentrated the antibodies are in that volume of milk. So it seems like the body has this daily requirement that they’re trying to meet, just like vitamins.

And no matter the volume of milk you have in a 24 hour period, it tries to pack that daily requirement into the milk that you have. So the milk that you currently have is all good and it’s wonderful. And we have that beautiful secretary that goes right into our mucus membranes and protects baby from upper respiratory infection.

Do you agree, Maureen, anything to add? Yeah,

Maureen: absolutely. And you know, there’ve been a number of different studies trying to figure out like, is there an actual magic number, you know, with some different conclusions, but kind of everything they’ve studied has said, okay. If you have been ever breastfed or partially breastfed, we still see some of the benefits.

I don’t know if we’re ever gonna have a definitive study that just focuses on like certain antibodies for certain illnesses. But I would love to see it if we

Heather: do. . Yeah, same. And I will say for those patients that are struggling with milk supply who are maybe pumping eight times a day and they’re only getting two ounces a day and they’re doing it for antibodies, that’s all well and good.

But just a friendly reminder. I stop right up until the point where you lose your mind. You know? Like if we’re losing our mind and our sanity pumping eight times a day just to get two ounces for antibodies, you know, we gotta check mental health too. So I just want to do a friendly reminder there that you are enough.

Your milk supply does not equal your value. And there’s always donor milk if you’re really concerned about it. .

Maureen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Heather and I are so excited to welcome back one of our very best friends, Laura Burk, because we’re gonna be talking about trying to wean your toddler at night. .

Heather: Yeah.

Laura’s been getting her nipples chomped on by her little cutie at night. So we’re gonna do something a little bit unofficial today. HIPAA compliant of course, because Laura has signed all the consent forms for sure. Definitely have done that. Legally sound in every way. But we are gonna do a lactation consult with Laura today, and she’s gonna get two for the price of one, and we’re gonna hopefully come to some solutions for her night weaning slash chomping toddler.

Yeah, I hope

Maureen: so, because this is a common problem and it’s a really tough one for a lot of people to solve. So we’ll see if we can at least get you some ideas to start working with. Well, let’s welcome our good friend. Welcome,

Laura: Laura. Hi Maureen. Hi, Heather. It’s so nice to see you too. Not on TikTok, but in person.

Oh yeah, . I feel like most of our interactions these days, Maureen, is like commenting on each other’s TikTok’s.

Maureen: Absolutely. And you know what, that’s fine. It’s wonderful. I’d love seeing your comments, .

Heather: All right, Laura, so let’s get into it. Tell us your sorted tale. Okay,

Laura: so, so I have two kids I call them Augie and Sebastian on the show.

Those are not their real names but us. Those are the names I will be using here. And Augie is almost four, and Sebastian just turned 22 months. And I’m telling you this backstory about Augie because I feel like it pertains to my mindset with Sebastian, with Augie. I am actually still breastfeeding Augie once a day for two minutes a day, but I have never actually weaned him because that’s just how we roll.

He loves, he loves his booboo time and it was a bonding thing and he nursed all through pregnancy and now we’re tandem feeding and I’m, I’m good with that. We are, we are in a good spot. That said, I night weaned him at like five and a half months and did like a Ferber style sleep training with him.

That worked beautifully and very quickly, like within two or three days. And I thought I was like a very competent mother at that point. I was like, sleep training works. It works for everyone. If it doesn’t work for you, it’s just, you know, you’re not consistent or whatever. Right. Very high on my horse in

Maureen: that situation.

Aren’t we all with our first children? We’re like,

Laura: yes, we are the best mother. . Yes. I said this on the podcast recently. I was like, I was. A great mother when I had one kid, and now I have two, and I’m like, oh, nothing I do makes any difference. It’s all their personality and I’m just along for the ride. So that said, Sebastian, my almost two year old, we followed the same path with him.

We tried to do the sleep training around six months and it worked kinda, and I had him kind of night weaned at that point. Like he would, you know, once a week, every other week wake up for a random thing like he’s teething or whatever, and he needed a top up fine. But then like the early wakings started to creep in and then he would get sick and things would kind of go off the rails and just, there was just a lot of life stuff that started happening.

The, I mean, and I’m talking like it’s been over a year now, but it just feels like we kept taking like two steps forward and. One in three quarter steps back, you know, like I would retrain him, quote unquote, for nights and he’d be good for like another month, and then it would start to become a problem again.

And we’ve gotten to the point now where he’s been in daycare for like three months. We just started him in daycare, which was obviously a huge emotional change for him. And he also got sick like four times in the last three months because daycare and my older son’s in preschool. So it’s just like a Petri dish around here.

The CDC should be here any moment sampling us for whatever new virus we’ve developed. But that the, the illnesses combined with the like separation anxiety of daycare just fucked us up, man. Like . It just, yeah, there was no sleep training. Like we tried a little bit to sort of let him cry. and see if he would settle himself.

Never like it didn’t work. And then it would wake up Augie and like, when your three and a half year old wakes up, you, you just wanna die because like, they’re not going back to sleep easily. So I would make the decision to like, you know, nurse him in the middle of night in his room and then it became like one time at night, then two times at night, then like three times.

Then I was sick of like spending all night in his room. So at like 4:00 AM I just started bringing him into my bed and then it was 3:00 AM and now it’s like midnight to 7:00 AM every night he’s in my bed. Which could be fine in theory, except for the dude pretty much wants to be latched nonstop. Like nonstop, which also, I can kind of sleep through until he gets sleepy and his just mouth just starts slowly closing until his little razor teeth just chomp down on my already like, just ruined nipples

So, and I get like startled awake, you know, and Yelp. And then my husband is like, what the fuck is going on over there? And I’m just like, oh, nothing, just, there’s just a piranha on my nipple who then gets woken up and then he’s like, oh, I want the other side. You know, it’s not like, okay, we’re done. It’s like, oh no, I’ve already destroyed that side.

Let’s work on the other side. So it just goes on for like seven hours and no one’s getting great sleep and I don’t know what to do exactly. Because all the advice I’ve heard is like, figure out when. , they’re nursing like, and then start slowly weaning them down. I’m like, it’s seven hours continuously

How do we wean down from that? So I need help. And I will say the one really cute thing, I mean it’s cute now, but it was, it isn’t cute in the middle of the night, is that if he like falls asleep and unlatches himself when he wakes up, he goes, oh no. Oh no. Boo boo boo boo . And I’m like, boo boo’s over here, kid

Heather: Your husband’s like, I’ve been trying to get that boo booo for a while. I can’t even, he’s

Laura: giving out, man. He knows that those things are a lost cause for, you know, until we ween, ween, which Lord knows when that’s gonna happen. Bless him. So, yes. Help me, Heather and Maureen. You’re my only hope.

Maureen: Yeah.

Laura, I just have to ask, have you tried putting him down? Drowsy, but awake? . . Oh, shit.

Laura: Did, did, did you try that? I’ve been looking for

Heather: you in your genius. No. Have you tried packing in as many calories during waking hours as you possibly can? so they’re stuffed full so they can quote unquote make it through the night?

Oh my gosh. I

Laura: will say yes, I have tried both of those things. And in fact I have been like aggressively trying to get ’em snacks before bed. Just like I’m at this point I’m not even trying to get ’em to sleep through the night. I’m like, give me two or 3:00 AM again, you know? Absolutely. But yeah, those things do not seem to work for this particular child and its particular temperament.

Heather: Well, I will say there’s some positive things here. There’s some good things. So let’s just point out the silver lining. We do not have a weight gain issue. You know, so it’s not, it’s not like he’s doing this to survive, you know? So this is purely a behavior modification situation. Mm-hmm. , which we can work with.

So you actually don’t really have a breastfeeding problem. You do, but it’s like tangential to the real problem, which is a behavior sleep problem.

Laura: Yes. It’s just the boobs are his focus on this

Maureen: one. Yeah. Are there other things that you’ve tried so far so we can avoid telling you to try them again?

Laura: Well, I mean, and so the real like crisis of the all night latching is fairly new. It’s about a month old. It, it creeped in very slowly, but this like always being in our bed all night is a fairly new thing. So I haven’t tried that much because we were sick and I just, you know, I didn’t have like the emotional bandwidth.

Another thing that happened in my life was my dad died a. about two months ago. And so it was one of those things where it was just like, I can deal with only so many things at once. Mm-hmm. child not sleeping, you go down to the like, we’re just gonna get you to sleep however it works. But yeah, I, yeah.

And I will say that he is technically awake when I put him in the Crip most nights. He doesn’t actually nurse to sleep in Okay. Like at the, at initially, which is kind of amazing. He does need to sort of be aggressively rocked. He also demands that I sing Bucket truck and ambulance in truck tunes . He, I, I can’t make this shit up you guys.

Maureen: Like, I really just like, can you give us your baby monitor footage, .

Laura: Oh, I do have some

Heather: Just hum a few bars for us right now.

Laura: Oh, I don’t wanna get sued by 20 trucks, but lifting up, up, up in a BBA bucket truck, but try to do that in a whisper. Lifting up, up, up in a BBA buck truck. Well, you’re like

Maureen: vigorously shaking a child.

Laura: basically. And I’m trying to like, I try to sing him actual lullabies and he loses his mind starts arching and crying and he goes up, up

Maureen: and then he’ll go, woo. For ambulance, . Yeah. They’ll, the lullabies are inferior to use the truck song. We’ll just live with that . So

Laura: know, but to be fair, he’s like conscious when he goes into it, the crib, it’s great, but

Maureen: barely right.

Whatever. I honestly, I don’t really care about that. But , you know, we at this point have a problem. Where he’s come, you know, after that initial sleep period, he’s coming in. Mm-hmm. . What happens if, like, when he wakes up that first time, if you try your initial sleep routine again? Does that work ever?

Laura: Hmm.

Well, our sleep routine starts with me nursing. So if I did that, he would just fall back asleep. Which I would, I would do for a while, but then he wouldn’t stay asleep. When I tried to transfer him to the crib, he’d, he’d lose it. If, for instance, my husband Corey tries to go in and just like sing to him and rock him.

The last time we tried that, he turned into a little, like gremlin just screaming and arching, you know, he’s almost two. The child is stringing, you know, sentences together, almost it’s not like a little delicate baby. And he’s like, He gets very angry. So he, he gets very angry and the last time Corey tried to do it, he, he tried shushing him and rocking him and comforting him for, I wanna say 20 straight minutes.

And then he’s like, I give up. I can’t, like, there’s nothing to be done.

Maureen: Yeah. There’s a reason we don’t, you know, even use like a modified Ferber method when they’re that old. It just does Yeah. No, they, they don’t cry it out. They just keep crying .

Laura: Yes. Correct. That

Heather: is correct. So, I, quick question. Quick question.

Mm-hmm. . So tell us about the setup of his room.

Laura: He is in a crib in his own room with a sound machine going and it’s very dark. We have tried various levels of darkness, like to the point where I got these light blocking little dot sticker things from Amazon and put like five of them on every little L c d light that was in his room.

And it was so dark that Corey and I would like run into things. and he was like, I think it’s too dark. So then we took those away so he would have a little bit of ambient light. Neither of those made a difference, but yes, he’s alone in his own room. Very dark with a sound machine.

Maureen: Okay. Right. So I, I had a similar problem with my son when he was like a year and a half.

And the two things that I did to break that, cause I was like, I’m gonna lose my mind and maybe my nipples, I don’t know both. , you know, is one, I switched him to a bed on the floor where I could nurse and just get up and walk away . And I didn’t have to transfer him because that transfer was killing me.

And two is that I did finally just like let my husband deal with it, even though I was like, I don’t know how long he’s gonna cry, but I can’t do it anymore. And it was pretty bad for like a week. But I think what we did, we would have my husband do his initial bedtime. We started with that and then we’d like slowly escalated, escalated to like him doing the first wake up also, and then him doing the second wake up also, you know, and just taking those tiny bites off of it.

And I think for this whole behavior modification, like that’s what we’re gonna have to do, right, is just go wake up by, wake up and do tiny bites. But you know, I don’t know if the floor bed thing appeals to you at all, but it’s definitely the easiest way to nurse a toddler to sleep and get out.

Heather: except then they can get up and then they can run to the door, and then you’re like flipping the doorknob around and putting the lock on the other side so you can lock them in.

Oh, girlfriend, I’m

Laura: already there. The lock is on the outside. When we moved into this house, I was like, put the lock on the outside and it has like the little toddler handle on it. That room is baby proof, like a hundred percent . So he can’t do anything in that room. I, I, why did I say that out loud? He’s too clever.

Like he’s gonna find something, but it’s, it’s pretty solid.

Heather: He’s gonna be like jumping out the window and scaling the side of the house and then coming in your bedroom window and sliding into bed with you and being like I told you, up, up, up, up. ,

Laura: up, up. He needs that bucket truck in his life. He’s gonna steal a bucket truck from down the street, drive it down, put the bucket truck up to our window.

Come in, Melissa Etheridge style.

Heather: All right. And then you’re gonna call the ambulance and you’re gonna w w w. Okay. So I will say Maureen and I probably differ a little bit in the way we approach these things. So, and this is kind of how we both talk to our patients, though we present some options. And then you knowing your baby the best, choose which one you’re most comfortable with, and always you can take these.

Suggestions and break ’em into bite size pieces. So for Yeah. Or

Maureen: maybe try all of them until one

Heather: works . Right. I mean, so for me, I, I kind of look at the person in front of me and I’m like, how desperate are we for sleep? Are we about to die? Like, is this a death scenario? Because this might be like, we have to do this a little bit quicker and we don’t have six months to like slow go it.

And I kind of think about the same, the same as we do any other lactation issue. Like, can this person handle this assignment ? If not, mm-hmm. , let’s not do that . So only you really know the answer to that because you’re the one waking up in the middle of the night. . But I will say we have some benefits to the fact that he is 22 months.

Mm-hmm. so he can understand a lot of what you’re saying. And you can lay some really good groundwork for the next level of development, which is independence, which is normal for him to wanna do that. And believe it or not, he is achieving independence and autonomy by controlling your boobs. So we need to kind of curb that and give him that independence in other ways that you’re comfortable with.

And so I kind of spend a couple days, maybe a week really trying to talk it up, you know, like kind of push him Oh yeah, yeah. Like, you

Maureen: know, kid. So big. You’re such a big kid.

Heather: Yeah. Like have him help you set up the crib, you know, like, will you help me set up your room for sleep? Cuz we’re gonna like really sleep tonight.

And just so you know, we’re not gonna do booboo anymore soon, overnight cuz you’re so big. Like you’re about to be two. That’s awesome. Like two year old’s. Wow. That’s huge. And then, you know, all day long you can build things in to give him that praise. I mean, he is a man, so like he’s gonna need to be congratulated all the time.

So Maureen actually helped my daughter with this when she was like being a holy terror and Maureen was like, she just needs something to do. So, handed her a Swiffer and showed her how to. Dust my baseboards and she was like obsessed with it. So Heidi would go around my house, just dusting my baseboards and then I’d be like, good job Heidi.

And she your like, your baseboards

Maureen: have never been so clean. Honestly,

Heather: honestly. So just like building in small things that you’re comfortable with like that. So you can keep reiterating that he is a big boy. Mm-hmm. and um and telling him what’s coming. That way when it comes, his little brain goes, wait, she did tell me this was gonna happen to be fair.

And it’s not like shock and surprise.

Maureen: Right. And building into that, if you wanted to say replace. That middle of the night nursing with like a snack and a cup of water, you could be like, Hey, can you help me bring your snack and your water up to your room? We’re gonna put them in a special place so when you wake up, we’re gonna have these and go right back to bed.

You know? And, and you could have him help in that process if you wanna put like a replacement item for the boobs.

Heather: True, true, true. And then also in addition to that, whenever you catch him playing in his room by himself, ask permission to come in. I know that sounds crazy, but if you knock on his door and be like, Hey, do you mind if I come in?

It’ll blow his little mind. He’ll be like, whoa. Yeah, absolutely. Mom, open door, come on in. Thanks for giving me all that power for just this tiny domain , you know? And it’s just like showing him that these boundaries are okay if you’re comfortable with that. You know, some people are like, this is my house, and you know, and I’m like, okay.

Yeah. But remember how you felt about your bedroom growing up? Mm-hmm. your bedroom was like your sacred space where like you could finally go and relax. You could have all your big wonderful teenage ideas and little kids, they start that early, you know? So really helping him to feel powerful in his own room is really important.

Question so far about

Laura: the replacement thing, like it makes sense to me, but I’m also worried that that’s something I would have to wean him off of as well. Like if we get used to a midnight.

Maureen: You will eventually, but it’s also something you could possibly transfer to your husband so you could get more sleep in the short term and then work on it long term.

So yeah, it’s, it’s something you’ll eventually have to drop, but it’s also like a less valuable item to him, you know, so he might not be as attached to it, but you know, it’s definitely more like buying you time and sleep than totally fixing the problem.

Laura: Fair. Fair enough. We do buy like two giant boxes of those Nature’s Bakery Fig bars every time I go to Costco.

Yes, we do too. Those things, man. I don’t know what they put

Maureen: in there. So can I just say the blueberry ones at this point just smell like blueberry poop to me? Yes. Thank you. And I can’t have them in the house every time. So every time they open them I’m like, who pooped? ?

Laura: A hundred percent. Okay. I’m glad. I thought I was crazy and like I still have this like super smell from pregnancy that never went away and.

That is the exact thought that goes through my head. Every time they open one, I can’t avoid buying them because the Costco pack comes in raspberry and blueberry and so I’m just like sucking it up. But like, cuz I know intellectually it’s not blueberry

Maureen: poop, but Right. It’s not, it’s not poop really. But your brain, my brain immediately is like, oh no.

Like this is like the eight month old baby ate a whole court of blueberry poop. Yep. Like, that’s what it is. It smells just like that. . No, it

Heather: really does replace it with that snack. Good God. .

Laura: That’s so funny. Funny. I’m so glad I’m not alone in that morning. A friend actually came over for like a play date with her two and a half year old recently, and we broke those out and she was like, did you poop?

Like asking your kid while they’re having the snack? And I was like, no, it’s just the bars. And she’s like, no, it, it smells like poop. And then she was like, I guess no poop. I’m like, I’m telling you.

Maureen: It’s the box. It’s the snacks. Yeah. My mother-in-law brought a the Costco box to us and I was like, oh no, it’s the blueberry one.

Now we

Laura: have to eat them. Well, it just goes to show they’re probably minimally processed blueberries cuz they smell just like, anyway. Yeah. Berries, is this what this podcast episode’s about?

Heather: Yes. Poop? Yes. Absolutely. It’s all about poop. Everything is all about poop all the time.

I tell all my patients who are brand new parents to put a list of soothing techniques on the refrigerator so they can both remember what they’ve already tried for soothing baby. I like to put a

Maureen: happy tummy on that list. It’s a natural herbal wrap that soothes and relieves pain instantly, and it’s so fuzzy.

Heather: It’s so great. It helps baby sleep at night, resolves colic gas or constipation. And it’s great because it has a little cute animal on the front for when they’re doing tummy time, which provides gentle pressure to help them get their toots out. And you

Maureen: know what? They’re not just for babies. They have them for teens and adults

Heather: too.

Hmm. So if you’re struggling with those period pains, get your herbal warm, happy tummy wrap today by going to happy And if you love us, enter promo code milk. Minute 10 for 10% off. That’s Milk Minute

Maureen: 10 for 10% off your

Heather: happy tummy. Thank you so much for supporting the show.

Maureen: Heather, when you were nursing Heidi, did you get thirsty

Heather: every single time? Every single time I sat down to nurse, it was like the Sahara Desert had taken up residents in my mouth. Same. And my go-to drink

Maureen: right now is

Heather: Liquid iv. Oh me too. Liquid IV makes your water work harder cuz it has a hydration multiplier in it.

That’s great tasting, non GMO. And it actually has cellular transport technology that delivers hydration to the bloodstream faster and more efficiently than water alone. You

Maureen: can also get their immune support blend, energy blend, or even one that helps with your

Heather: sleep health. My personal favorite is Lemon Lime and I think it actually makes me drink water two times faster, which is always handy when you have a screaming baby in the room.


Maureen: really like the Tangerine. And if you wanna try that today, you can go to the link in our show notes and use our discount code milk underscore minute for 15%

Heather: off your order. That’s milk underscore Minute for 15% off your Liquid IV today. Happy drinking.

I, let me say this. Maureen is a nicer mom than I am. Hands down. She is much nicer to her children. She gives them like tons of leeway. I will tell you that I probably could not have handled the snack situation in the middle of the night because my children, because I know them the best, would literally ride that gravy train until high school.

They would be getting up in the middle of the night feeling like they had free access to the fridge. Like it’s already a problem that I deal with in my daylight hours where they’re like eating a hundred snacks before dinner and then they’re like, Ew, dinner. And I’m just like, oh my God. So for me, that gives me anxiety.

But Maureen’s kids are totally different than mine. So I will say your kid also knows that you and your husband are two different people. So he will play you . And so, These kids need to know that you are a united front on all things and we have to make you boring. So you are the most interesting thing in the world.

And with behavior modification, we know that intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful reinforcement. So I mean, there is something to be said for consistency, but not just consistency in like, The things that you’re doing in like the way you’re doing them, like in the most boring way possible, where it’s the same words that you’re saying every time.

It’s the same actions, the same hand movements, and this kid is not gonna get anything different no matter what he does. He’s like, they both come in, but like it’s always the same. It’s just like not worth my time to wake up and deal with it anymore. So what I usually have people try with these older kids is I will have them spend that week building up the, you’re a big boy and like laying the foundation of, you know, we’re gonna be not doing boo boo overnight anymore.

You know, just so you know. And, and it’s a good thing because that means we can do it during the day and mommy will be really happy about it, and excited to do it, and like reinvigorated with the passion to feed you with my body. So I will say feed them in a room that is not the room they sleep in. You might already be doing this.

Turn all the lights on in the living room, breastfeed ’em, put a buffer activity between breastfeeding and bedtime. So that could be a book, it could be bath, it could be a quick walk outside. And then we brush teeth and we go to bed, especially for a 22 month old, you know, like a little tiny toothbrushing, just to get them in the habit of that.

And then you put ’em down. Both you and your husband go in together and you put him in his crib and you go, okay, we’ll see you in the morning, and you leave. But you both stand outside the door with a glass of wine staring at each other because inevitably this kid is gonna cry. And so he’s gonna cry. And when it gets to a decibel that you’re no longer comfortable with, you go in and the first time you go in, you can pick him up and you can comfort him.

But no more than 15 seconds. And you say the same thing. It’s hard to learn new. You’re gonna sleep through the night. We love you and we’ll see you in the morning and you put him right back down and he might not lay all the way down. He might most likely be holding the bars of the crib screaming with tears and snot dripping down his face.

And that’s okay. You both say, we love you, and you both leave. And you stand outside the door and he cries again. You go in and this time you don’t pick him up, you just touch his little wet tear stained face, or you pat his back or you pat his butt and then you say the same thing. We love you. It’s hard to learn new things.

You’re gonna sleep through the night. We’ll see you in the morning and you leave. Third time you go back in. You just both poke your head in and verbally reassure him, say the same exact words, and then you’ll leave and he’s gonna, your kid is gonna be like, what the fuck? Like this is trash. I don’t, this is boring.

I’m not getting anything. I want you repeat step. Over and over and over until it’s been about, I don’t go longer than 45 minutes because at that point it’s like all hell’s breaking loose. So if it’s gone beyond 45 minutes, you take him out of his crib, go back to the living room with the lights on, you give him the boob, you read a little book, you go right back in and you do the same thing.

And eventually, after a few days of that, he’s like, I’m not getting anything different. And dad’s here too , which means this sucks for me. Like this is not ever gonna be anything new or interesting, but you can’t crack because if one of you goes in and lays down, it’s all over, you might as well start back at day one because of that intermittent reinforcement being the most effective.

So does that make sense?

Laura: Yes, it does make sense.

Maureen: I feel like I’d have to take a week off of work to do that .

Laura: I know that is a concern.

Heather: Yeah, I usually recommend the weekend. Yeah, I usually say the weekend set. Realistic expectations. For yourself and your husband and just be like, this is a marital project that we’re working on for the greater good.

Ripping the band-aid off like it’s gentle weening because you’re still going in all the time. You’re not like letting them cry it out, but you’re letting them experience what it’s like to be alone and put themself to sleep without a nipple in their mouth. And during the daylight hours, you can also nurse and build in a comfort item that you keep giving back to the baby overnight.

You know where you’re like, no, like we’re not doing boo boo, but look, here’s your boo Booo item, like your little blanket that you only get when you’re doing boo boo . Like that nice little consolation. Prize. . .

Laura: I guess this would be a. Good time to like give the older one. Melatonin is my The other thing, cause like in my head I’m like, how are we gonna do this?

You know, like the other, the older one is gonna be like, what is going on out there? There guys

Maureen: maybe, can you like send your older kid to go like, stay with a relative for a few

Laura: days? . I wish, I wish we had people like that. Yeah. We just don’t have anyone who can really handle him. I mean, and part of the reason that this sort of happened is we were dealing with his, you know, three and a half year old new brain anxieties with his sleep for the longest time.

So for the longest time he was the sleep priority and now thankfully he’s much better. And it’s like, oh, okay, look at the other one. But yeah, yeah, it definitely would require some, some vigilance on our part and some caffeine it sounds like. So. Would you do the same thing then in the middle of the night?

Yes. Okay. But with both people, both

Heather: parents? Yep, both parents. You both go in and usually in the middle of the night, we don’t do breastfeeding first, you know, you just go in, pick ’em up, reassure, and then tap, and then verbal after that. But yeah, dad has to be there too, for every single one. . It sucks, but it’s also like I’ve found to be the quickest, most effective way.

And also you’re not adding in another variable. But I can see how if you had the capacity to do it and the time to do it, that adding in an extra thing, like Maureen was saying, like a replacement activity could work, but you’re gonna have to be just as consistent with that.

Maureen: Yeah, I think no matter which, what you choose, whether you choose like the very slow behavior change or like ripping the band aid off fast.

you have to try to stick, you know, whichever one of those out till you are really sure that it’s not working. And then try and then try another thing. Cuz obviously the same method as you know, does not work for every child, as we’ve all found out with our second children .

Heather: Yeah, for sure. And as far as the, you know, if, let’s do a third option, and I think Maureen and I can probably.

Agree on this one. Correct me if I’m wrong, Maureen, I don’t wanna speak for you, but if you do end up co-sleeping and you’re like, you know what, actually co-sleeping is not the problem. I don’t mind sleeping with him. I just mind nursing him like removing your nipple from his mouth and you can hum. You know, so like humming the same exact song when you’re nursing during the daytime, you know, if it’s up, up, up, whatever, just remove your nipple from his mouth and sing up, up, up and just kind of gently shake him in bed and do that repeatedly for a while.

First. You could try that and, you know, that’s, that’s hard cuz the nipples are there and you’re tired obviously, and accessible takes more resolve .

Maureen: Yeah, that’s basically what I’ve done now, right? Bec, I mean my, I put my daughter down in her own bed. . She very rarely sleeps through the night. Sometimes.

Sometimes we’re like, oh my God, what happened at seven in the morning? And nobody woke us up. But I have my husband usually get her for the first wake up and then, you know, if he can’t put her down again, he brings her in. I’ll nurse her and then I try to unlatch before she’s asleep and I’m like, okay, all done.

Then I pat her tummy till she falls asleep. But that took a long time to get to and sometimes she still falls asleep before I unlatch. But I can usually get that sucker out of there pretty easily. Yeah. And then I roll away and I like put this little pillow in next to her hip so she can’t roll back toward me.

this like little like rice stuffed pillow, like it’s a hard thing and I just kind of wedge in and I’m like, that’s your side of the bed kid. See ya, .

Laura: That’s smart. That’s smart. I did the other night find him like, at the edge of the bed, about to like, go on in little exploration. Like I was just, I woke up and I was like, wait, Sebastian, where’s Sebastian?

And I see him at the edge of the bed and we have like a high bed. Mm-hmm. . That’s my other

Maureen: anxiety. Yeah, we do too. It’s like, it’s, I put a pad down next to our bed, like Yeah. I, I usually fall asleep with her between me and the wall, you know? Mm-hmm. , like that’s the goal. It doesn’t always work. So Yeah. I put like a, a foam pad down because I was like, I can’t, if she falls out of this bed, she’s gonna like get a concussion.

Heather: It’s like really high .

Laura: Yeah. I’ve been like throwing extra pillows on the ground. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yes. So what you guys are saying is I need to like, make a decision and stick. Is that

Maureen: what you’re saying? Yeah. , shocker. Yeah, no, you, I think, I think what you need to decide is what is your priority?

Is, is getting sleep as soon as possible the priority, or do you feel like you can stick it out longer and like doing the most, you know, gentle method possible is the priority, right? Because those are kind of the two ends of the spectrum we’ve given you is like, you know, the longer term the, the ones that take longer are, are more gentle for baby, there’s less crying or like, I don’t know, can you handle the crying if you can’t maybe choose that one.

Or if you’re like, you know, I, if I’m gonna die, if I don’t get sleep in the next few days, then choose the faster one. You know? And no guarantee any of those is gonna work with your kid, but you have to start somewhere.

Laura: Right, true. Everyone keeps saying, well, he’s not gonna be sleeping in your bed when he’s in college.

And I

Maureen: was like, at, that’s not . No, he will eventually get out of your bed. I have never, had a client whose kids like literally wouldn’t stop co-sleeping with them. But I have had people do it until their kids are like five. You know, usually what I’ve seen is they’ll co-sleep with one till they have another baby,

Laura: and that’s not happening over here.

I’m, I’m shut down.

Maureen: Right. And he’ll eventually wean, he’ll eventually get outta your bed. But is that actually what you want? Do you wanna keep doing

Heather: that? Well, and also I, I always think about the cave people and like the people that live on the prairie that live in like a one room hut or a literal cave where it’s like a bunch of people all in the same place.

I’m like, how did you ever. Establish boundaries or like, you can’t just be freaking crying all night when you have to get up before the roosters do to go work the farm. So like how do you keep these children quiet? Or do you just have less anxiety than I do? And I think, I think that, you know, I’d love to be able to interview someone from like 300 years ago, but they’re not around.

But I will say I, I am anticipating that they probably, because of their survival needs, they were just like, you have to sleep and it’s good for you . You know, like Right. Or you can

Maureen: nurse all night

Heather: and I’ll sleep through it. Exactly. Exactly. But if it comes to the point where you can’t sleep all night and you’ve got shit to do, like that’s why I think they would put them in dresser drawers and just go night night and just shut the dresser drawer

I’d be like, I’m not saying to do that. I’m saying that they definitely

Maureen: used to do that. I can understand extremes sometimes. Yeah. I, I mean, I think. . A lot of it too has to do with our cultural expectations. You know? Like there, there are many other cultures where sleeping alone would be seen as shocking.

Like nobody sleeps alone. You know, . Yeah. Kids don’t sleep alone. You don’t sleep alone. And so when your expectations for sleep are different, you know, you’re gonna handle this whole situation differently. You know? And when you’re used to not sleeping alone, you’re gonna sleep through more of other people’s movements and sounds and all of that.

Like, you’re gonna be used to that. Whereas most of us sleep alone or with like one other adult. and we’re used to, you know, we needed to be quiet. We need them not to move. Mm-hmm. , if they snore, they have to get out. , and, you know so it’s harder for a lot of us who’ve grown up that way than to be like, oh, now I have to sleep with a toddler attached to my body.

Heather: Sorry, what? . Well, and also it sounds to me like he’s getting sleep while nursing, like he’s asleep. Nursing and you’re not.

Laura: I mean, it’s to the point where it, I was like, should I give him a pacifier? Because that’s what he’s, I mean, he’s not like, it’s not nutritive sucking really. You know what I mean? After a certain point.

But I’m like,

Maureen: I mean, you could, I’m not, and that would, that would just be like giving him a snack. Right. You’d be Yeah. Solving the problem. Solving the immediate problem by replacing it with a different one. Yeah. Which might be easier to wean off of and it probably would be. Right. Like, you know, and that’s, that’s kind of what I did with my son by being like, here, husband, you handle all the wake up.

Yes. He’s waking up just as much I am sleeping. And also you’re like, just not as important to him, frankly, because you don’t have milk, you know? Yeah. So eventually he just stopped waking up because he wasn’t getting, you know, that at night. So

Laura: interesting. I have actually a technical question for you too, since you’re experts.

So I am not good at taking my prenatal vitamins. Or postnatal vitamins, which are just prenatal vitamins. But I have started doing it more because I realized after maybe a week or two of this, like all night nursing, I was like getting lots of leg cramps and I started panicking that I was like becoming some kind of like vitamin depleted person because my child was literally sucking the life outta me.

Is there any reality to that or like, should there be something that I should be concerned about? Cuz I’m literally nursing for seventh Street hours at night?

Heather: I think your body is communicating with you for sure. Yeah. I,

Maureen: I think there’s definitely some of like, yes. Suddenly what your child is asking from your body is different.

Your body is gonna pull from the resources it has, whether or not they’re enough mm-hmm. For you to still have them, you know? And I think also you have that then in combination. , you know, when your sleep is disrupted, you, all of your hormones get messed up. Mm-hmm. , right? And your cortisol levels. And so that like cascades down into how your body manages its resources, right?

And how your body is able to absorb vitamins and minerals, how it uses them. Like, you know, just having your cortisol levels raised because of stress or just like having your sleep cycle disrupted can change all of that. . So probably some combination therein, you know? And yes, it’s a great idea to give yourself like a little bit more support , like nutritionally if possible, right?

Taking vitamins, eating a well-rounded diet, you know, trying to like cut back a little bit on caffeine, just giving your body like the best possible starting place to manage this kind of elevated stress from less.

Heather: I agree. I think that before you embark on whatever sleep training, because really you are full on sleep training, this isn’t like, oh, I have a six week old, I’m gonna sleep train.

It’s like, no, you’re not . That kid doesn’t, that kid doesn’t even make its own melatonin yet. Work it neurologically regulate itself. But good luck. No, you’re, you’re truly sleep training and you have to feel stable enough to do it. Mm-hmm. . So if your body is literally sending you warning signals like you’re not, okay, , maybe you need a full REM cycle of four hours.

So maybe you need to go get a hotel the night before you start this and just literally sleep and be like, good luck, husband. You’re gonna survive. Like, we’re starting night one with me rested because I am the linchpin. That sounds

Laura: nice. .

Maureen: I think you should, I like, you know, every time, every time I took that first night away from both of my babies, I was the one who was more freaked out.

My husband was like, yeah, they are gonna cry all night. And it’s fine. And I’m gonna like sleep with them on my chest in the hammock that’s in our living room, because that’s just how it goes, you know? And it’s gonna be fine. And I was like, okay. He’s like, and I’m not gonna tell you how much they cry and you’re gonna sleep.

Okay, ,

Heather: or, or you take a really solid nap while they’re at daycare. You go get acupuncture for your adrenal fatigue that you definitely have and just really kind of focus on. Feeling okay before you do this and giving yourself permission to do this. And also I will say that a lot of people do have some complicated emotions that come up with this.

Like, am I not gonna be bonded anymore if we’re not nursing overnight? Is it gonna affect my supply during the day? At this point, it wouldn’t. And I think it would only help your bond with nursing because you’re not gonna have those complicated feelings of like mm-hmm again, you wanna do this again.

It’s more like, oh no, like thanks for letting me sleep all night. You also baby are well rested cuz you slept all night. We’re now we’re gonna have our morning booboo and it can be nice and relaxing again. So I think that truly there is, that’s the reward at the end of this is health for everybody and decreased anxiety in your kid because it’s good for their brain to get more than two hours of sleep at a time when they’re pushing two years old, you know?


Laura: Okay. I have one practical question that I also need answered, which is like talking about comfort. What do I do if my boobs are now used to nursing from midnight to 7:00 AM straight? Like, am I gonna get engorged like or is it, am I like past it At this age, I, you

Maureen: know, most people at this point would maybe feel uncomfortable for like a day or two, but not the kind of discomfort that causes like mastitis, you know?

Okay. Alright. But if you do, you could like hand pump for five minutes. You know, because it’s gonna be like half an ounce of milk, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It’s, I mean, it’s amazing now, you know, if I spend like 24 hours away from my toddler, I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m so uncomfortable. And I pump and I’m like, well, that was like less than an ounce total

But I feel so much better .

Heather: Oh yeah. But I mean, the thing is, if it’s gonna be a consistent thing where they’re sleeping through the night, you might as well lean into the discomfort, take a ibuprofen and just go back to bed. Mm-hmm. and not remove it, because it’s not gonna be that much anyway, like she said.

And you know, you don’t want your kid to start sleeping through the night, but then your boobs aren’t sleeping through the night. Cuz that’s rude. Yeah.

Laura: That is rude. Yeah.

Maureen: I, I think ibuprofen for sure.

Laura: Yeah. I love, I love ibuprofen. It’s a magical drug. Yeah. I

Maureen: mean, and of course keep an eye on it, you know.

Yeah. But most likely you’ll have a little bit of discomfort for a night or two, and then you’ll be fine. So, okay. Good to know. Good to know. And, and you’ll probably sleep through it because you need it. . Yeah. Fair.

Heather: I hope so. Yeah. We want this for you, friend. We want you to get Yeah. A full REM cycle. Mm-hmm.

And we want that for your kid too, you know?

Laura: Yeah. Same. I think he needs it.

Heather: It’s nice when you haven’t seen your kid all night and then they wake up in the morning. It’s like, oh my God, I missed you. Like I can’t miss you if you’re not gone, .

Laura: It’s true. It’s true. It’s my overwhelming feeling with daycare and preschool.

I’m like in the morning like, thank God they’re gone. And at the end of the day I’m like, oh my beautiful little angels are back. .

Heather: Yes, exactly. Yeah. A hundred percent. I feel that too.

Laura: All right, well I feel like I’m gonna have to check back in with you guys. Like I’m a person who needs accountability. Oh, I would love

Maureen: a follow up

Okay. I, yeah, let us know what you tried. Okay. And what worked and what was a dumpster fire.

Laura: I will, I will make sure I check back in with you guys and give you a blow by blow.

Heather: Yeah, blow by blow would be amazing. And should we put a time on it? Like you wanna regroup in two weeks? Is that enough time for you to like, think about a plan? Start a plan?

Laura: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. We could at least check in in two weeks and I can give you an update whether there’s an update.

Heather: How’s that? It sounds good because honestly, as a provider you can’t go on like this for longer than two more weeks, , because you’re already hanging by a thread, which is why we’re talking right now. So I’m gonna put that time limit on you not to like, okay. Get it resolved, but to like choose a path and start working towards it.

Laura: Okay. Sounds good. I’m on it. I love an assignment

Maureen: and I hope one of these things is just your magic sleep miracle. I really do.

Laura: I Me too. Me too. Me too. You never know. All right. Well thank you guys for

Heather: your help. Yes. Thank you for coming. You’re always welcome on the show. And if you guys wanna hear more stories about Augie and Sebastian, you can head over to Big Fat Positive.

And do you wanna drop your social media? Yeah. We’re at

Laura: B F P Podcast on Instagram, Facebook, and the TikTok. And we have a website, big positive

Heather: Amazing love. Lovely. Everybody. Go find her and we will be back for a follow up to see how it.

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That was good. You know, I’ve heard from a lot of people that they like it when we have different opinions. Yeah,

Maureen: I, I mean, I think it’s, in this case especially, it’s helpful because we just don’t actually know which one of those is gonna work best for the baby. Especially when they’re two. You’re

Heather: like, oh God, they’re like a whole person at this point.

They are. So, it’s kind of hard to say. It’s like I’ve never met him in person, but yeah, I don’t know. Yeah, it’s hard to know also because it’s easier to add something to, to take something away. . Mm-hmm. . But then eventually you’re gonna take it away anyway. So it’s just kind of, I like, oh, do you delay the inevitable or, it’s hard.

It’s really, it’s just hard. I al I always

Maureen: like to go down tiers of like how important the thing is. I’m like, okay, we’re gonna replace this very high value item with a slightly less, and then we’re gonna replace that with something less exciting and then you’re not gonna want it

Heather: at all. . Oh my God. If only my kids seem to.

always be interested in anything like no, that works well

Maureen: with my kids, but yeah,

Heather: they’re not every kid. My kids are like amped. They’re like turned up to 11 all the time and they can make something outta nothing. And like perfect example is melatonin gummies. So my son got it in his head from the pediatrician that that’s what he needs to go to sleep because he’s on Oh no.

Concerta for his ADHD. And so he thinks he needs it to go to. . And so then of course my daughter needs a night night gummy, right? And you’re

Maureen: like, okay, now we

Heather: need to get gummies that look the same , right? So then I have to switch it. We run out because it’s inevitable that you run out of the thing that you added in and then you’re like, well, shit, I guess we can’t do it.

And then they have full panic attacks. They’re like, well, I’m not gonna be able to sleep if I don’t have the night night gummy. So I get Flintstone gummies vitamins and I switch them. And my son is smart enough to know, but my daughter doesn’t. So I’m just like, this is your new brand of Night Night gummies.

And she was like questioning it at first. But I honestly had that thought where I was just like, is this even worth it? Or should I just be like, go the fuck to sleep. You don’t need any of this. You’re fine. Guess what? You slept 12 hours yesterday and you’ll do it again. My

Maureen: son doesn’t hold on to things like that, like.

for a while I thought that was gonna be a thing with his nightlight, you know? And it was like he would be like panicked when he couldn’t find it. And I was like, okay. But we’d always find it, you know, be like, oh yeah, he brought it downstairs, whatever. Then he left it at his grandma’s house. And I was like, oh God.

But then he just went to sleep and he didn’t mention it again. And I was like,

Heather: okay, see that my son, no, he’s nine years old and he’s got a nightlight that will change colors, but you can pick the color and he has to have it on this specific shade of green. And if he doesn’t, he’s like, can you fix my light?

Can you fix my light? And I’m like, oh my God. It’s like being in a prison of your own making. So like that’s why I’m this way.

Maureen: My son has one. He has one thing like that. So usually as long as he can do that one, as long as he can play an audiobook, it’s fine. But like, it can be on his player, it can be off my phone, it can be off his tablet.

It doesn’t matter. Hmm.

Heather: No, we have to hold our mouth right at my house to make sure everything works. So that’s why I always go with the less is more approach because Yeah. I have just not historically been able to manage the more scenario ever. Oh,

Maureen: totally. Well, we’ll see which one works for Laura. I’m curious.

What I, I feel like she’s gonna choose something that’s kind of middle of the road.

Heather: Uhhuh, , I would say. Well, I don’t know. Yeah. Because there’s a whole other partner involved in this and at two years old. Yeah, there’s the dad really is. Research based steps in a lot more when the kid is two. Yeah.

Maureen: Thank God

Heather: they do

Yeah. Finally. So I’m very curious and I, my heart goes out to her and Corey and Augie, you know, like to be the oldest kid with a sibling that’s trying to work out sleep. I mean, honestly, they’re, they probably do fine with it, but when you wake up in the middle of the night and you don’t want to, it’s very sad.

So in solidarity with you, Laura, we love

Maureen: you. Yeah. Yeah. I hope he sleeps through it too. . Yeah, me too. Okay. Well we have an award,

Heather: right? Yes, we do. So today’s award goes to Sarah Kollment, one of our beautiful, wonderful patrons. Sarah says, successfully drop pumping a couple months ago. Big thank you to Heather for the assist.

No problem. And continue to nurse in the morning and at night, and sometimes after daycare to my now 15 month old. I’m so grateful for all the work you two do to help moms like me be successful with my breastfeeding journey. Well, that is so nice, and we are so proud of you for not pumping at work anymore.

That is a huge win. A lot of people are very nervous that they’re not gonna be able to feed just morning and night when they drop their pumps. And most of the time they’re pleasantly surprised.

Maureen: It’s usually a mental block. , not a, not a milk one . Okay. My dear, I would like to give you the Pumpless Princess Award,


Heather: You are a princess. We’re really proud of you.

Maureen: Absolutely. And please, if you guys wanna submit questions and awards you can send us a message or you can join us on Patreon because we give priority to our patrons for those.

Heather: And you can join us on Patreon at minute podcast and support us for as little as 25 cents an.

Maureen: Okay. Well, I hope everybody out, out there struggling with your own toddler sleep sagas. Got some good ideas. We would love feedback if you try any of the things we talked to Laura about today. What works, what didn’t, or if you already did this and you’re like, I have my own unique method that you guys didn’t even talk about, let us know.

Heather: And thank you for listening to another episode of the Milk Minute podcast.

Maureen: The way that we change this big system that is really not made to support lactating parents is by educating ourselves and our friends and our family members, and by sharing resources like this podcast

Heather: and trying to get some sleep for the love of all that is Holy. All right, we love you guys. We are wishing you a very good night’s sleep tonight. Bye-bye.


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