Heather ONeal: Join us for another episode. Thank you all so much for being with me today. I am just over the moon excited to share this interview with you. Maureen couldn’t make it today because I insisted on doing it quickly so we could get it out there for you. But I have had the pleasure of interviewing Ms. Grainne Evans.
She is an Irish poet, mom of four, and volunteer with La Leche League Ireland, who has agreed to come and share her completely viral poem called, “They Say,” with us. And someone had shared this poem during World Breastfeeding Week in my private breastfeeding group called Breastfeeding for Busy Moms.
And I heard that and I almost cried and I knew that there was a story behind this piece of art. I knew that this was not just something you wrote out of nowhere, and I am so blessed that Grainne actually agreed to share her personal story behind all of her works of writing. And we all are very lucky to be able to hear her speak today.
So thank you so much for being with us and without further ado, let’s welcome Grainne Evans.
Miss Grainne Evans, thank you so much for joining me today to talk on the breast friends podcast about your recent post. I don’t know if it actually is recent, but it went viral recently for a world breastfeeding week and was viewed, I think 165,000 times in one week. Is that right?
So, first of all, I just want you to please tell us who you are and where you came from and how in the world you came to rate this post.
Grainne Evans: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I love your podcast so this is really exciting for me. So I’m a mom of four, I’ve got four kids. I’ve been, I’ve been a breastfeeding counselor with La Leche League for a couple of years now, but I’ve been really involved in breastfeeding support for many more years than that and really since my second baby was born.
And it was around that time as well, I started to write little rhymes about breastfeeding. Little poems, and I was putting them on a blog and I don’t write very often, but every now and then something will come to me. And I mean, I don’t really, there’s nothing new, but they rhymed so, people liked them and yeah.
Recently, I, it was only a couple of weeks ago I was writing this one about all the things that we hear just constantly, constantly being told to us and, and, you know, like I’m well into my breastfeeding journey and I’ve been breastfeeding for nearly 11 years straight, but I support lots of, you know, new moms.
So the stuff that they hear is really effecting them and, you know, people still get very upset about all this stuff that gets told constantly. So it was kind of just kind of rattling around in my head and I thought I’d write a little poem about it.
Heather ONeal: So did you just sit down and like spit this poem out?
Grainne Evans: Yeah. That’s kind of how they happen, yeah. When they, once they come to me, they just kind of form themselves really. And I had kind of shown some breastfeeding support friends of mine. And the other admin in a group that we run called Breastfeeding in Northern Ireland. And I showed them what I was kind of working on and they were like, oh, you got to record that one. I was like, oh, I don’t know. You know, like, I don’t really think I can do that. And so I kind of made a promise to myself for world breastfeeding week that I would actually get the courage up and I would record this poem. And so I managed it with one hour to go.
That’s how scared I was. At 11 o’clock at night on the last day I was like, okay, I’m going to do it. And yes, it has become very popular. So I’m kind of a bit shocked.
Heather ONeal: Oh, my gosh, I, I am so glad that you wrote this poem. I mean, you’ve been a lactation counselor for a long time now, and I know that you know, that breastfeeding is a global language.
You know, that’s why we can be internationally board certified because it’s always the same. It doesn’t matter what language you speak. And when I heard this poem and I knew that you were from Ireland, the first thing that I thought as a lactation counselor was holy shit, they’re having the same problems that we’re having.
You know, it’s not only just the same language of breastfeeding, it’s the same problems. It’s the same judgment. It’s the same bad advice. It’s just globally exhausting. And I don’t think that we have ever had a piece of art that’s so poignantly brought that to light. Thank you on behalf of everybody. I just, when I heard that poem, I immediately was like, I’m going to friend request her and I have to get her on this podcast.
Grainne Evans: That point you made about the things that are said to breastfeeding moms being global, that kind of hit me as well, because I was really, first of all, really pleased that people liked the poem on that it was being shared everywhere, Australia, America. But then that, that actually did hit me. I was like, well, that means that they’re hearing that too, because I kind of thought that, you know, oh, you know, people from right here, people in Ireland will they’ll get this because they’ll all have heard this, you know, so actually realizing that, oh shit, like everybody is hearing this, like on the other side of the world, they’re hearing the same things.
Cause otherwise, why would this poem resonate with them? Why would they be sharing it all over there? So that’s, that was kind of a bit of a shock to me. Yeah.
Heather ONeal: And, you know, also you’re just getting the conversation going about Ireland in particular, which I had never thought about what’s going on in Ireland with breastfeeding and just one quick, like five second Google search was pretty negative news. Like only 60% of people are leaving the hospital breastfeeding at all.
Grainne Evans: Yeah. That, and that’s, that’s probably on the high side. So yeah, we have probably some of the lowest rates in the world, which is really devastating for us as counselors, because like, you know, we, we so desperately want to help everybody meet their goals, but we have real problems here.
Like we need a kind of entire societal shift and they’re still rampant marketing of formula products. We still have major problems in hospitals with kind of like training and just the advice moms aren’t getting consistent advice from even their healthcare professionals. Just the whole thing needs, needs a massive shift.
So our writs are on paper it’s disastrous. So one of the things that we do see at the minute is that if we can get mums to keep going our rates at like six and 12 months are increasing, but we still have that massive, massive drop-off. We have, you know, we have a fairly low initiation rate, like you said, and then the rate kind of plummets in the first week as well.
So we do, we do have a lot of work to do here.
Heather ONeal: What’s going on over there it’s not like, I mean, you’re not the biggest country and I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but a lot of Ireland is educated, right? It’s like, they’re very well-developed. Am I wrong in thinking that?
Grainne Evans: Demographically, you know, we shouldn’t be in this situation, but I think, you know what, we actually produce a shockingly large amount of the world’s formula.
I think we maybe make, for a tiny island, I think we make 15% of the world’s formula. So we have a massive dairy industry here, and I feel like it has been in, you know, the best interests of certain, very large sectors of market here, to make sure that breastfeeding doesn’t work out. And we just, we don’t, we don’t fund enough breastfeeding support.
You know, like everything that I do is as a volunteer, you know, it’s very difficult to get the money poured in that we need to shift this in the right direction. So that is crazy though.
Heather ONeal: That blows my mind. We actually just did a big podcast that’s not been released yet, but an episode on the history of formula and how they came to be and like the dirty little secrets behind it. And I’m actually thinking about now adding in a little something about Ireland, I’m going to go research that and I’m going to stick that in there because that is fascinating.
Grainne Evans: Right. And then, you know, and then to see that correlate with such a low, low breastfeeding rate, you know, you follow the money, basically, you know, these things and it comes down to the bottom line and it’s, it’s really sad.
I remember having my eyes opened by you know, the book, the politics of breastfeeding, that kind of thought was a real shocker for me. I learned a lot about, you know, why things are the way they are.
Heather ONeal: Oh, the woman’s body. It has always been just like an enigma. Like how can we make money off of it? How can we control it? How can you know? It’s like, why is all of this highly politicized? I’m just very confused.
Grainne Evans: And, you know, like Ireland actually, like, because we were like such a religious country for a long time and in some ways still are like, we have an awful lot of that kind of very patriarchal, controlling, almost prudish side as well.
So a lot of our moms are terrified to breastfeed in public because they’re going to be seen as indecent or, you know, like been told to cover up and things that, so we’ve got that against us as well. You know, a lot of things, a lot of things.
Heather ONeal: So as a volunteer for La Leche League in Ireland, what does that look like? I know what it looks like in America but tell me a little bit about what you’re doing over there.
Grainne Evans: Okay, so I’m going to go pre pandemic because right now it doesn’t look, it doesn’t look the same, but before all the crazy coronavirus and stuff happened, we, we run monthly meetings. In fact, I was doing a meeting in the time here that I’m from twice a month.
So like, that was you know, a free meeting for moms to come to get proper support. We do telephone calls, we’d see you know, messaging support from moms. And right now, because of corona, that’s all moved online. So we’re actually doing some like live talks every week, and we have zoom meetings which, which are great.
I mean, it’s better than nothing. You know, I desperately miss our group and being able to be there face-to-face with the mom and on really kind of, you know, help her through her issues. It’s, it’s very difficult. And to do that online.
Heather ONeal: It’s actually becoming a little bit of an art form that I’m trying to figure out how to perfect. I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but I’ve taken all of my consulting online. So, you know, parents, lactating parents can sign up for a private consult with me. I was actually surprised by how many people I could fix virtually. Yeah. But I mean, there are some things that are very frustrating, you know, so it’s very helpful to have a partner with them.
So I’ve started asking people to have a support person with them during the call. So somebody can hold the phone and you know, I’m always like giving people jobs, go get the haakaa. I need a little cup. I need a spoon, go get the, get a mirror so I can see what’s going on. I need better lighting. So like the lactating parent is sitting there trying to adjust and do what I say while the other one is running around doing all the jobs that I’m telling them to do, but it takes so much more queuing and it takes so much more time. I think just like everything correctly, but it is possible.
Grainne Evans: I’ve heard this name from some, a friend of mine is lactation consultant on her one-to-one over zoom. She says she’s been really surprised as well. And because she actually asks for a mom to send in a video ahead of time. Yeah, she can use that video to kind of pause and point out if you know, here, if you can change position. And so she’s found great success with that as well. I suppose I just really miss our, you know, the groups with, you know, with that kind of feeling when you’re like in a room with the group of breastfeeding moms and like the oxytocin is flowing and you had maybe a kind of cathartic little cry about something, and people are kind of really just like bonding and like feeling that solidarity. I desperately hope that we can get back to that again, because that was my, my favorite part.
Heather ONeal: Oh my gosh. And, you know, bless you for doing that. And just being able to sit with people in their own struggle because don’t you feel like that’s half of our job is just telling people that they’re okay?
Grainne Evans: It’s okay. And it’s hard and I get it. And I’ve been there on all of that stuff that, you know, that just listening is a huge part.
And the thing is, you know, they were there for me. Like I needed so much support in my own breastfeeding journeys that I’ve been the mum that needed to be listened to and I needed to cry and be held and, and, and needed all that support. So I just, I’ve always felt so strongly that I wanted to pay that forward and be that for someone else. So yeah.
Heather ONeal: You had kind of briefly touched on a little bit of your breastfeeding journey and what made you so passionate about it and I think you said your third baby had a tracheostomy?
Grainne Evans: Yes, my daughter Tessa was born and she was born with an incredibly rare condition known as BAM syndrome. When she was born, it didn’t even have a name. She was born without a nose, which I didn’t even think was possible or know was possible. So where her nose should be was just flat. So she only had one airway essentially, which was a huge shock when she was born made for some very difficult weeks. We spent about five weeks in hospital.
Where they give her a tracheostomy as a second airway so that it would be more comfortable for her for her to, to eat and sleep. But you have breasts getting that baby to breastfeed. Like that was, I mean, I thought that was impossible when, when, when I had her and I was still feeding her two-year-old sister at the time.
To be faced with a baby that I thought I wouldn’t ever be able to breastfeed was just breaking my heart. And so when she had her tracheostomy, they actually said, you know, maybe, maybe she will be able to, but the support in hospital was real patchy. And you know, I was in the NICU. So there were no, like, there wasn’t exactly a space to relax and just be with her.
It was all very much, you know, she had to be in her cot, they were feeding her every three hours and it was, you know, it was all just very medically managed. It was so, so difficult. But when we got home I worked with a good friend of mine who was a La Leche League leader and we got her exclusively breastfeeding by eight weeks old. And she went on to, I mean, she didn’t wean until she was, I think, five years and ten months. Like.
Heather ONeal: Oh my gosh. What a story truly. I mean, can you imagine if she was your first baby?
Grainne Evans: I have always been so grateful that she was not my first baby, because the two kids that came before her taught me so, so much. And because I was still feeding Cassie, I knew how wonderful breastfeeding could be. I knew what I would be giving up if I decided not to just give it everything and try everything that I could to, to manage her. And it worked. It was incredible. And the years and years that I was able to nurse her, through surgeries, multiple surgeries, hospital stays all of that.
Like what a gift it was like, I’m still just in awe of how incredible experience it was, but I needed so much support on I needed to it not to have been my first baby so that I would, I knew that it was worth fighting for. Like really fighting for, and it, it, it took a lot, you know, it took, I mean, all of those weeks where we were transitioning from tube feeds to bottle feeds to breastfeeds, I mean all the crying, oh my goodness.
Heather ONeal: Everyone, just everyone crying.
Grainne Evans: Well, we, we got there, you know, we got it. It did make me, it taught me so much, right. Everything that I knew up to that point, you know, like how to get a baby to latch, like how to help, like laid back positions, reflexes, all of this stuff, you know, tummy in. And like, none of it worked when you have a baby who’s airway is coming out here.
You have to keep your breast away from this airway. I couldn’t even lie her flat on me. She was, you know, like after all the weeks of tube feeds, she wasn’t really queuing, hunger queuing cause she was on this schedule. So we had to kind of like try and get her out of that. There was there was, she wouldn’t actually suck until she felt something on her pallet, like we almost had a kind of, bait and switch was what we used mostly.
I had to basically bounce her in my arms while walking use a kind of flippable technique that kind of exaggerated latch, but also starting her off, like on the bottle and switching to my breast once she was already sucking. But I mean, I needed six hands. But we got there. We got there.
Heather ONeal: And you have other kids to take care of.
Grainne Evans: Yes. I mean, somebody else was doing most of that to be perfectly honest because those weeks, those first weeks with Tessa were so all consuming. So like my mom and my aunts, and they just rallied around and helped me so much, you know? And it’s just another example of why these things are possible, but only with the right support. You know, like moms need so much support and we shouldn’t be living these little nuclear lives.
You know, we were supposed to be surrounded by family and our village.
Heather ONeal: Well, you know, that’s one of the things that I tell my pregnant patients, cause I’m a midwife also. But whenever I did see pregnant patients, I would say as much as you’re preparing for labor and birth, you should be preparing for breastfeeding.
And they’re like, oh, it’ll be fine. It’s my third baby. And I’m always like, listen, you never know what’s going to happen. You do not know what kind of labor and delivery you’re going to have and trying to troubleshoot when you’re already exhausted and it’s just right in your face, even like knowing who to call.
And I always say there’s a reason that the emergency number is 9 1 1. Well, that’s what it is in America. It’s only three numbers because in an emergency, no one’s going to remember a 10-digit number. They’re going to be like ehhh, and then not call anyone, which is what happens all the time. So thank God you knew who to call and where to go.
Grainne Evans: The universe was looking out for me because, you know, I knew what I was doing breastfeeding wise, or at least I knew kind of the basics.
I knew I had access to the best support we have in this country. And I, and I was able to get that family support at home. So, and she wasn’t my first baby. So all of that needed to happen for that success story with Tessa to be what it was, you know, it really was so important for us. Like that separation that we had in the hospital was really traumatic and being able to feed her really started to heal us both, you know, like.
It really kind of started to mend that really broken heart that I had at the time I came out, I was, you know, I was shattered into pieces, but you know, being able to feed her, you know, so naturally and beautifully and have it all work out like that. That really, yeah, it healed my heart.
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Heather ONeal: Yeah. That’s so beautiful that you put it like that because I had a little bit of a traumatic first delivery and then it was like my second baby that came, it was completely different. And I did a lot of my healing the second time from the first time. Do you feel like when you had your fourth, you were able to heal even more from that?
Grainne Evans: Well, I mean, hugely because first of all, my first baby was a field induction that ended with an emergency C-section. My second was an elective section because they told they couldn’t let me go any longer. With Tessa, I actually had everything, everything lined up. I had a doula, we had a waterbirth that was perfect, except that she was born different and they took her away from me. So while the birth should have been this wonderful healing thing, and I was able to prove to myself that, you know, I could do it given the right opportunity.
You know, there was so much trauma that came after it. It was really difficult. I had my fourth baby at home in front of the fireplace and it was absolutely incredible. Zero separation. You know, he had his first feed within minutes, never left me. And it was honestly one of the most healing experiences that I’ve ever had or ever will have in my life.
It couldn’t have been more perfect. You know, we really did come full circle and I’m so grateful to everybody that was there to make that happen as well. We had private midwives, my doula and you know, God, what a, what a morning it was actually, I’ve just been thinking about it a lot because it was his birthday on Tuesday. So he was one Tuesday.
Heather ONeal: Happy birthday to little man. That’s so great. Man, so what would you do, well, give us some words of encouragement for those parents out there that had a medically fragile baby recently, and they’re obviously scared to death and they’re probably thinking I’ll never do this again.
Grainne Evans: The first thing is, is to be kind to yourself because a lot of things go on in your head when those situations happen.
And I kind of had to forgive myself for a lot of that because what, what happens is that you’re, you kind of go into a grieving process. And I know that after Tessa was born, I, I felt a loss and the only, the only other time that I felt anything like it was when I had when I miscarried, which I had two miscarriages before my first baby.
And I really, I felt that again. And then, because I felt that I felt guilty for feeling that cause I felt so awful. I was like, my baby’s here. Like I, I’m not, I shouldn’t feel this way. This is making me a terrible person. And I really had to do an awful lot of like forgiveness and, and just being really kind to myself because the grief that you go through, if you have a baby who is born different or has a medical issue you kind of go through a grieving process, grieving the child that you thought you were going to have.
Yeah, grieving this kind of perfect or ideal or whatever you had imagined for your future might be that’s, if that looks different now, you can have this grieving process and that’s okay. That’s normal. So be kind to yourself, first of all. And then you just need to find as much support as you. And you have to know that time is going to make everything so much better.
I promise you that. I did write a little bit about; I’ve written about Tessa’s breastfeeding journey and I’ve written about her first year. And I remember at the end of that first year, you know, writing it all down and being like, I really wish that somebody could have just shown me how happy I was going to be a year later.
Whenever I was that very, very broken person. Time is going to really start healing you. I loved the fact that breastfeeding and babywearing became a huge part of how I healed. That was really important to me. I felt like the separation that happened in hospital did really cause kind of huge scars for me emotionally.
So breastfeeding was so important in that aspect. Really helped my mental health and baby wearing. Keeping her close to me because she had been taken away that, that, that was really important as well. So those two things became massive parts of my life, but I really still passionately advocate for both.
Heather ONeal: Oh, my gosh, you are such a blessing to people and you might not even know it, but you really, truly are. I would love for you to publish those if you are open to publishing those private writings about that journey, because I just know that so many people would, would really, really resonate with that. And I’ve, it’s just very difficult for me as a lactation consultant to, to see somebody in that moment and try to tell them, you can do this. Because in that moment, they might not want to, you know, and, but you can see down the road because you have a little bit more clarity and by you saying it having been there, it’s going to hold so much more weight.
Grainne Evans: Yeah. And you know what, I, I heard all those things from other people and I, you know, I couldn’t repeat what went on in my head when I heard those thing, because I was calling them names. I was, I remember somebody like, and this was a really, they were being so kind to me and I remember they were talking about, you know, like by Tessa being born the way she was.
And he was, he was saying, you know, oh, you know, you don’t know, but you know, she’s so lucky because you know, you’re gonna, you’re gonna be such a great help for other families who have babies like Tessa. And I didn’t answer him. I was just holding back tears. But in my head, in my head, I was thinking, don’t be so stupid. There are no other babies like Tessa, you know. Since then I have found lots and lots of families with babies like Tessa and I have set up the first step, its Facebook support group for those families and I have put in touch people from all over the world and been contacted and created a network for families.
And so really I did exactly what he said I was going to do, but in that moment, I couldn’t hear that. In that moment I was so angry and I suppose it’s kind of just realizing that when a person is in that grief process, they’re not, they’re not going to be receptive to an awful lot of what anybody says, because they simply have to process, but you can say it, but don’t expect an answer and don’t expect a good answer.
But even just, just, you can still say it because it’ll be in there somewhere. You know, his words are still in my head and I’m glad that he said them, but at the time I was honestly swearing at him in my head. Yeah.
Heather ONeal: Yeah. And you know, like you were saying before, you were feeling guilty about going through the grieving process of losing the idyllic picture of what you thought would happen.
And just to piggyback on that, I think a lot of people wait so long to get help because they are embarrassed about how they are feeling and the thoughts that are going through their head and like all the cuss words that they’re saying about their lactation consultants. And let me just be the first one to tell you, I can take it.
You know, like, go ahead, you can yell at me and scream at me and I’m still going to be there for you if you need anything. Cause that’s what we signed up for. And we’ve been there, you know. I’ve had the bloody nipples and I’ve been, you know, the person that felt completely alone. So go through that process.
And I always try to remind people, it doesn’t matter how many days it’s been since you’ve showered. It doesn’t matter what kind of ugliness you feel like you have inside you. Everyone is worthy of help. And if you need it, you need to go get it. Because we can’t find you like we can’t, there’s not like, unfortunately, a call service that comes around. It’s like, Hey, are you having postpartum depression today?
Grainne Evans: So, so, so important. That’s such an important message. And as moms, we are so hard on ourselves. So hard on ourselves, you know, like I don’t think we’d ever talk to anybody else the way that inner voice sometimes yells at us, you know, and that’s exactly what you know, exactly what you’ve described.
You know, like we need to just be able to advocate for ourselves and know that we are, we, we deserve the help, even if we don’t feel it that day, because, you know, we haven’t checked off whatever arbitrary checklist in our head we think we need to deserve help, but we all do. You know, I have been that mom as well. I’ve been that angry cross unsheltered bleeding mom. Somebody was there for me and yeah.
Heather ONeal: Ah, well, you’ve already given us so much today. I mean, really, if I had to pull all the nuggets out of this and I could write a blog about 15 different things, just from our little conversation we’ve had, but would you be willing to read your poem for us?
Grainne Evans: Certainly. Here it is. So this is the poem that’s all about everything that we hear as breastfeeding moms that’s not necessarily helpful. It’s called, “They say…”
They say “it’s rude to breastfeed when you’re out and about”
They say “let them in bed an’ you’ll not get ’em out” .
They say “it’s not safe, they need their own cot”.
They say “your milk will dry up more likely than not”.
They say “babies need to learn to sleep on their own”.
They say “put them down,’cos it’s well known”
“You’ll be making a rod for your own back”.
They say “your baby’s sleep schedule is way off track”.
They say “there’s no need to be a martyr”.
They say “if you spoil him it’ll be harder”.
They say “formula now is just as good,
Sure soon he’ll be ready for some ‘real’ food”.
The say “surely he can’t be hungry again”?
They say “if you don’t stop nursing now, then when”?
They say “he’s too old and it’s getting weird”
“You don’t want to be breastfeeding when he has a beard.”
They ask “does she sleep? and “is she good?”
“Do she have a routine? She really should.”
They ask “Does she eat three meals a day?
“Does she fuss? Does she follow sleep-feed- play”?
They say “baby’s too big, your boobs are too small”
“You’ll not make enough milk to fill her at all”
They say “It’s colic, it’s reflux, it’s her teeth or her ears”.
“Do this. Give her that. Here’s a cure for her tears”.
Please! Enough is enough, we need to stop it,
Call out the nonsense, follow the profit.
Let’s say the right things and ask the right questions.
And if you’re unsure, here’s a few suggestions.
Smile and tell mum that she’s doing great.
Remember her choices aren’t up for debate.
Trust that she knows her own baby best,
And co-sleeping mums actually get the most rest.
Ask how mum’s coping with frequent night feeding.
Reassure her it’s normal, celebrate her succeeding.
Don’t judge if her toddler is still breastfeeding.
Your opinion isn’t something she’s wanting or needing.
Say you can’t hold or cuddle them enough.
Explain how it all passes the good and the rough.
Normalise growth spurts and development leaps,
Agree you can’t always sleep when baby sleeps.
Ask “how can I help, what can I do?”
Encourage and support her to see her plans through.
Let her complain, listen without trying to fix it.
Make her a cuppa and bring her a biscuit.
Spread word far ‘n wide of normal baby behaviour,
‘Till it’s commonly known by the world and its neighbour.
End the damaging cycle of misinformation,
Check out the evidence, value lactation!
Help empower all mothers, offer peace of mind,
And if you’re ever in doubt… Just remember, be kind.
Heather ONeal: That is absolutely beautiful. Thank you.
Grainne Evans: Thank you so much.
Heather ONeal: Thank you. I would love to share this everywhere if you’re comfortable with that.
Grainne Evans: Go for it. Go for it. It’s been everywhere.
Heather ONeal: That’s what you think. Wasn’t that just the most amazing work of art about breastfeeding you have ever heard?
I am so obsessed with Grainne Evans. I can’t even tell you. She has changed my life just by doing this interview with me. Truly. I mean, she had me crying at one point during this interview and we ended up talking for like 30 minutes behind the scenes, which I will make available for all of our Patreon members of course.
But if you or somebody you know could benefit from hearing Grainne’s beautiful story, please share this episode and you never know whose life you’re going to change. It might be just the thing that somebody needs to get them through a difficult time. So, you know, I just I hope that you get something out of this because I did.
And I just couldn’t think Grainne enough for coming and talking to us. And I hope you feel the same. And of course I will post in the show notes exactly how you can find Grainne and all of her beautiful pieces of writing. Thank you so much for tuning in for another interview with the Milk Minute Podcast.